Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: Clear by parentage?
Couldn't think what to call this. I'm more speaking out loud but I would love opinions and thoughts and where YOU stand or will stand on this.
Everyone knows what an advocate of Optigen testing I am. I was very shocked to discover that Permenant ID is not required in the 'smallprint' when I found this out a while back, as usually is anyone I tell.
I have playing around in my head with senarios and ideas. I stand by the fact that we are basically a country of honest people with very few cheats and 'players'. So therefore, mistakes, genuine or through deception by submitting the wrong sample deliberately for a dog, *shouldn't* be rife, but well, there will be some, a few, a very few.
So how reliable is 'Clear by parentage'? And how many generations from this glut of inital testing we are doing now, should we go claiming 'Clear by parentage' with no permenant ID or DNA PARENTAGE tests undertaken?
I have a Puppy here. A dog who one day *might* stand at stud. he is out of a tested Clear bitch to a dog who is Clear by parentage. So HE himself is Clear by parentage. But is 'second generation' Clear by parentage down the dog line.
I 101% trust that to be so, with nothing remotely debateable about that fact. However in time, when he is bred from, to bitches who themselves are Clear by parentage, we are three generations down, and not just trusting ONE side is all above board but BOTH sides then.
And on we go.... for how long?
As I say I am mulling not criticising or throwing any spanners in any works. I don't suppose for a minute I need to doubt even TEN generations of Clear by parentage, BUT I have been thinking 'Ok, woman, you have doubts, what are you going to do about it?' (because I'm like that!)
So I have decided that I am going to actually test all my stud dogs themselves even if they are Clear by Parentage. Even First generation Clear by Parentage. I am not quite so solid in my mind about my bitches. Or how I would advise puppy buyers. My puppy endorsement sheet currently reads that I ask for all dogs or bitches to be Optigen tested UNLESS CLEAR BY PARENTAGE. Maybe I change that? More to consider.... Does asking for Clear by parentage dogs to be tested as a 'checking device' seem overzealous... quite probably..... hmmmm.....
I do believe, very much, IN the benefits of Clear by parentage, meaning we can encourage folks to test and pay out knowing that when they have a clear dog or bitch and mate only to clear dogs or bitches, they never have to Optigen test again 'on paper' as all will be Clear by Parentage.
But how many generations do we trot down? Some forward thinking lines are already 3 generations down Clear by parentage....
I *think* I am set on testing all my males (as they will contribute more to the gene pool than my bitches hopefully - grin) each and every time, and my bitches no less frequently than third generation 'Clear by parentage'....
What are YOUR thoughts?
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Just thinking about this I believe that if I was buying a dog, even if it was clear by parentage, I would have it tested if it was going to be used at stud or as a breeding bitch.
Better to be safe, I would think, than not realise that things can skip generations in dogs and humans.
Will be watching this Di as it all fascinates me and confuses me to sometimes so am eager to hear and learn more . Breeding has so much more to it, that people just don't realise how much thought and time goes into breeding and more so before breeding. In the past few months have learnt a great deal that i had not even thought about..........all very interesting .
mmm - definitely food for thought. I have thought about this too and can't help thinking that 1st generation 'clear by parentage' would be acceptable, but any generation after that should have the paperwork, i.e. pup comes with mum and dad's Optigen certificates, but any progeny of that pup in it's turn should be tested and carry it's own paperwork..
I have to say this has been on my mind for some time Di. I KNOW there are unscrupulous breeders out there who cheat (I have flagged one up recently where I know there to be something dubious going on!), and the Optigen test will soon filter down as a 'selling point' to breeders who don't show or trial.
It can be cheated, in the same way that hip scoring can be, and therefore there has to be some sort of fall back testing for those of us who want to be squeaky with our health status, even if every three generations, otherwise I am convinced that at some point down the line we will see a supposedly clear animal fail the BVA test and all fall about in shock
Also, it only takes one incorrectly done lab test (not going to say this is likely, but theoretically anything can happen...) on a well used dog and we will all have a problem down the generations.
I had thought about doing mine every second or third generation if I deemed it necessary.
As for your studs - okay, it's an added expense, but it's complete peace of mind. Personally I would probably only do the ones that had really obvious potential for a problem, and leave the others until the next generation so long as their parents were clear and there wasn't a known carrier close up in the pedigree. I don't have any stud dogs though, so I might reconsider my position if I did and they were well used
It is interesting. Personally I think ALL dogs should be permanently identified and maybe it should be the responsibiliy of the breeder to do so. It happens here in France - dogs HAVE to be identified and registered on a National Database. That's not to say all are but reputable breeders certainly do and it is the law. It's easy and relatively cheap, in the scheme of things, to change the ownership details (€3).
I can't remember, but when I submitted my Optigen test did I not have to submit a permanent ID marker too? Anyhow, my dogs have chips (and tattoos), which are registered on a national database AND it's on their pedigrees too so they can easily be cross matched.
The trouble is, when you go to have these things done - like x-rays for hip scoring or blood tests how often does the vet actually check the id of the dog against what he's submitting? Not many I suspect.
Hilary, thanks your comment, and yes, I think I probably agree. I would however say that its not so much because I think the test results might be at fault or that PRA could skip a generation but that with no permenant ID needing to be checked when submitting Optigen samples, it *would* be easy to submit a already Clear dog as a dog you think *might* have a problem.
BUT it would be very counter productive true if that *clear* dog *then* went on to produce eye problem, BUT it COULD happen, as could a bitch be *had*, unknowingly to the owners, by another dog in the kennel after going to a stud dog, sending the pedigree into cyberspace!
It does make me realise though here are us debating this 'double checking the ultimate in health testing' when some aren't even scoring hips If it didn't make me so pig sick I would laugh!
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Very interesting subject Di and I have been mulling over similar thoughts. I bred a litter last year but did not Optigen test my dog and bitch until after the litter (purely because I had not got my head around all of the details, ramifications, and the fact that both were high risk so to speak). They have now both been tested Clear/Normal so all the pups from the litter are "Clear by Parentage".
There are two points that I have been pondering
1) I have kept a bitch pup and fingers crossed she is the best I have ever owned, working wise, confirmation wise, temperament wise etc. ect. I want everything to be perfect for her future. I know she is "clear by parentage", call me daft but I have had her tested (I obviously have trust issues with pharmacutical companies that are out to make money!!) but she has tested Clear/Normal so all is ok.
2) I am notifying all the pup owners that the pups they have are "clear by parentage" and I will forward copies of the certificates to each. Do I draw up some sort of signed document by myself stating that the vet checked the microchip number of each dog against the documentation when taking the blood sample?
As you say Di what is going to happen in the future when swabs are being sent to Optigen with no check on whether the swab comes from the correct dog? Are all vets or vet nurses double checking microchip numbers against dogs when taking the blood samples?
Sorry but it is obvious I have huge trust problems and I believe that all you can do is try to cover yourself on all of these points.
Oh, and thanks for the e-mail about the clinic Di. Can I confirm that booking please for the stunning little newbie currently curled up on the kitchen floor in front of the rayburn?
I love your thoughts ladies, thank you. Its good to know others sit there pondering such things too!
The thing is, Nic, yes, you *may* of submitted a microchip number and Blue *might* have been scanned, and rightly so in my view, they give a place on the darn form for it, BUT Optigen themselves don't insist on it.
And NOW they have started allowing mouth swabs to be used in some cases, swabs which, are used by owner, at home, without even going to a vet, so it is 101% on trust. Add to that, the possible 'mismating' senario in some cases in kennels with entire males and it does become a possibility that Clear can be doubted.
Most owners, and most vets, because of the way a space is there for a dogs microchip number, believe they DO have to be checked, but Optigens official answer is that they actually don't in the case of adult dog being tested (You do for litter testing)....
Tricky eh? Interesting thoughts everyone!
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
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