Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: hip scoring
I am considering using my male lab for stud, have enquired about hip and elbow scoring and i know this question has been asked a thousand times before, but.....
What is the average for labs (everyone seems to say different)
and also do you only breed from below average or is there a different rule for breeding??
The latest Breed Mean Score for Labradors is 15, and the Median is 10. This is taken from the BVA's list for 1/1/06. (I dont have the 07 list, but it will only have changed by the odd decimal point, if at all.)
As to what should be used for breeding. I guess we all have our own ideas, but personally I like to see single figures. That is not to say you should never use a dog in double figures, a dog is more than just a pair of hips. But if I saw over the BMS I would be wanting to know the thinking behind using that dog. It would want some redeeming feature to balance.
Can I ask, and I don't mean this to be offensive in any way but what makes you think your dog has all the qualities that alot of people would be looking for in a stud dog? So in other words, what do you think are his good points and can you see any negatives?
Oh, and are you considering having him Optigen tested?
Do you show or work your boy? if not, how are people going to know he is available and be able to rate him good enough for their little girl?
I am not being facetious when I say that - but it is the bitch owner who picks the stud dog - the exceptions to that will be the bargain basement ads on dodgy websites where people offer £50 or pick of litter - so at best you get a puppy from, more than likely, unhealth-tested parents that has had no consideration given to its breeding, health history or parentage
After a lot of soul searching and research, I recently had a litter from my chocolate bitch - I did a 600 mile round trip to use my chosen stud dog - I knew at 11am on the Saturday she was ready, and descended on them late evening on Spring bank holiday weekend - are you prepared for this?
As experienced breeders, they have, along with others, guided me through the complex maze of keeping a potentially pregnant bitch, feeding, whelping and caring for what is my first litter , could you do that?
I also now know from what I have seen, heard and read, that we had a really easy time with the mating and whelping - and thankfully I had a reasonable sized litter - any more and I think I would have well and truly been on the gin bottle by now
As mentioned above, in addition to hip scores, you need an annual clear eye certificate (done by a specialist vet) and should know your boy's optigen status. Consideration should also be given to Elbow Scoring
[quote="Izzy_Molly"]Can I ask, and I don't mean this to be offensive in any way but what makes you think your dog has all the qualities that alot of people would be looking for in a stud dog? So in other words, what do you think are his good points and can you see any negatives?
Oh, and are you considering having him Optigen tested?[/quote]
Yes i am considering having him optigen tested. No offense taken, i'll start at the beginning and you can tell me if you think my reasons are good enough.
Charlie has a reasonably good show pedigree, most lines the same as robs Maple (Butwick my little star) she is Charlies aunt.
Charlie was a fantastic puppy, easy to train, very biddable. He never chewed anything, was toilet trained within days, he is very placid, hardly ever barks.(only at the lawn mower) I have never heard him growl. Charlie never jumped on anyone and has always been a plaesure to own. In fact so much so that at 8 mnths we got another puppy, a REAL puppy who chewed a bit and stole food etc.. puppy things!!!! which made me appreciate just how very good Charlie was. Charlie is 14mnths now and continues to be a very good natured boy, I have a 4 year old who can walk him to heel. He loves other people and dogs and has never shown any aggresion. We have been attending gundog training with Charlie, he is doing very well despite being a 'show' dog and his grade 1 test is at the end of this month. I have been approached by a local breeder who is experienced who would like to use Charlie to cover her bitch (tests and stuff being o.k) She lives locally and the dogs have met and get on well, she has said that i can take Charlie to her and she will talk me through and offer advice and help should he or i need it. She has offered the going rate for our area.
Any more questions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated, please be honest i promise not to take offence at anything apart from my attrocious spelling!
Jade
hi there,
here is a very good overview to different breeds published on KC data:
The Kennel Club, as the regulating body for all pedigree dogs in the UK, publish hip and elbow dysplasia and eye examination results and add the result to the dog's pedigree record, as well as to the records of any progeny of the dog.
Average Breed Mean Scores for Gun Dogs are as follows:
Gun Dog Breed Mean Score
Labrador Retriever 16
English Springer Spaniel 14
Cocker Spaniel 15
Pointer 11
German Short Haired Pointer 10
German Wire Haired Pointer 11
German Long Haired Pointer 9
Welsh Springer Spaniel 19
Flat Coated Retriever 9
Golden Retriever 19
Chesapeake Bay Retriever 11
Irish Setter 16
English Setter 19
Gordon Setter 25
Irish Water Spaniel 18
Hungarian Visla 12
Italian Spinone 15
Bracco Italiano 18
Can you remind me of his pedigree? I'm a lazy cow and can't be bothered to trawl the posts looking
Pleased to hear that apart from being what sounds like a fantastic pet, you are attempting other avenues with him such as the Gundog training and grade 1 test, if he is from "show" lines, is this something else which you'd try?
Like Sue says, really it is up to bitches to come to you, and when I was looking for a stud dog, I wanted the very best that I could get for my bitch, which meant using a dog that had "proved" himself worthy of being used by gaining many show awards and winning many BOB's etc as well as being a wonderful companion to his owners , with a very good pedigree that "tied" in with that of my bitch.
I was "offered" the use of the Village stud for an extortionate sum of money, because he was Chocolate (and apparently in demand ) and each time he is used, it buys a new washing machine/fridge freezer etc
A dog at stud is much, much more than a docile pet with a nice pedigree to earn some easy money..............
however, these are just my own personal opinions
If you are going to get the hips/elbows done, the BVA are taking around 6 weeks to get the scores back to you, so the sooner you get it done the better, Optigen testing is quicker at around a 2 week wait for results.
Just to clear up a point, the Sporting Gun figures you quoted Chris are at best 2003 but without checking all the breeds may be even older. So much on the net has never been updated. I have the 1/1/2006 figures, but thought I would check for a later set, because the updates are issued on the first of Jan, but even the BVA have not updated theirs and are still showing the same 1/1/06 figures so I do not know the 2007 figure yet but doubt it has changed much.
Just a couple of posts written and posted several times about handling a dog at stud and the service you offer, as even if one person enquiring is experienced (and no offense but if she WAS she would be using a proven, established stud dog handled by someone experienced with show or working success) doesn't mean anyone else will be after all, only genuine pet folks will use a pet dog on their girl because they don't know how to find a dog of any other type. THEY will need a lot of backup and experience...
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Ok the above was in answer about the general area of standing your dog at stud... this - again, one I wrote earlier for another identical thread talks more about what you need to consider before putting a bitch infront of your dog:
I handle outside dogs at stud and also my own stud dogs. Whilst the impression is that one throws two dogs into a garden and nature takes over sadly nothing could be further from the truth. There are legal and ethical responsibilities these days to handling a stud dog. I would add the fact that you do not 'have a stud dog' you 'offer a stud SERVICE'. That service is not just putting dog A with bitch B and leaving them to mate. 90% of dogs won't. They are domesticated and do not have the natural instincts of days gone by.
Your stud service is that you know lots about bitch reproduction and so can tell THEM when to bring her to your dog. You will need to know what to look for and feel for (including sometimes internals on the bitches which come to you) to know she is ready for mating before allowing your dog to mate her. Most dogs cannot penetrate without hand manipulation into the right place. Bitches do not stand rock steady and infact some are VERY aggressive about being mated.
Would you know if that aggression was because she wasn't ready for mating or if she was just being a difficult old bag?
Holding down a bitch, not ready for mating, can result in injury to her, and certainly to your stud dog.
Do you know what a slip mating is? Its when the dog mates the bitch, and ejaculates into her but hasn't 'tied' her and therefore, ejaculates and steps off, with his bits extended and post seminal fluid raining down on everyone that should have been going into the bitch during the tie. Are you aware how to handle this? How long to wait before trying again to make the mating worth while as he has 'come' once? How dissappointed most bitch owners are with a slip mating? Do you know how to explian the facts of bitches concieving from slip matings (they can but bitch owners don't believe you most of the time and can give you a hard time about it...)
What if those people had driven 100 miles to your dog and you stand there with him jumping on and off, on and off and nothing happening? Do you understand the mechanics of the way dogs mate and tie. How to turn your dog so they are back to back with a bitch thrashing, snarling and yelling as it is uncomfortable? Do you know about advising about care of the inseason bitch, about what to recommend they do after the mating with her? About feeding and care of the inwhelp bitch? They often won't - YOU provide the service for a fee, or a puppy back, so YOU need to know for their sake. Do you know how to break a tie between two dogs in an emergency? (and it doesn't involve throwing a bucket of water over them....)
What if you dog cannot put his penis back in its sheath? Do you know your legal position if the bitch develops or picks up and infection shortly after mating? What the Kennel Club expect of you as regards paperwork? The inland revenues standpoint on taking money on a regular basis and putting it in your bank account?
What if there are problems with the puppies? Cleft palletes, disabilities? Swimmers (do you know what a swimmer is?) etc etc etc...
I know I sound a HORRIBLE woman, but its not a friendly arrangement. People pay to use your dog and want pups. Healthy pups. A no nonsense servcing from your dog, two ties 48 hours apart, and a litter of 10 pups all who are better than their parents. An easy pregnancy, advice all the way down the line, the paperwork all present and correct and perfection in the offspring for the rest of their days. Bitch owners are and SHOULD BE demanding. They are paying money for something and should get what they pay for to the very bestof your ability. Even if money doesn't change hands no bitch wants a botched inexperienced dog leaping on and off her every day for 10 days whilst you chaps learn by hit and miss how to mate dogs. It will turn any bitch into a snapping snarling wreak.
A bitch needs to come bang on when she is ready, be mated swiftly with as little fuss as possible, with the dog manipulated into her FAST, she needs supporting, and the turn when they tie to be clean, no fuss and as painless as possible for her. Its not easy....
Sadly nature doesn't kick in often these days. Mismatings between Jack Russells and Great Danes which people cite when saying 'it must be easy mating dogs if THAT can happen' are fairy tales. Almost certainly mismatings are distressing, painful, long winded and hellish for the bitch, and with his bits locked into a fighting snarling bitch, pretty damn awful for the dog. hence the stud SERVICE needing to be offered and carried out.
Hope this helps.
Di
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but what makes you think your dog has all the qualities that alot of people would be looking for in a stud dog? So in other words, what do you think are his good points and can you see any negatives?
, could you do that?
) and each time he is used, it buys a new washing machine/fridge freezer etc 
