Ooooh, Karl - that's a controversial one - will probably post back later, though don't think I've been 'around' long enough to have the experience to vote either way!!!!
When a judge lookes round the ring at all the dogs, then raises their line of vision and has another look round the ring at the faces, I would say it's almost without doubt that the dogs are not necessarily being judged for their qualities and not their handler
I think most are fair, but there are definitely some who are not 100% scrupulous.
However, there does appear to be a tendency for a dog which has done very well recently to have a good run - is this because it is in it's prime or do some judges watch what others do so as not to seem odd one out when their turn comes?
I'm not sure that I've been around long enough in the show ring in Labs to comment, but I am sure it goes on, but I haven't noticed it, although recently at a Champ show I was told that the winner would come from one of two dogs and that the other would be second - and that was correct. Two very nice dogs mind you who are doing well so who knows?
Much as I'd love to be doing well at Champ shows, I do sometimes feel that I get a very fair and honest placement from a Gundog breed person at an Open all breeds show, who doesn't know me from Adam, nor anyone else for that matter, and simply judges the dogs.
I'm curious to know though, what the recent events are, as this has obviously sparked this posting.
This is one I would love to comment on........I have noticed even though I have not been showing for too long that the judge does tend to look at the handler and then the dog. I feel that the dog and its qualities should be judged and not who is handling it. I would like to see the handlers change at championship shows so that we can see just what dog the judge does pick out and not because of who is behind the lead
I think it depends entirely on the judge and it happens in all breeds, not just labs. Some judges will genuinely place what they like regardless of who's handling it, whereas others will place their friends or people to whom they owe favours (we've all seen it happen im sure!!).
A funny story.. It was a retriever exhibitor who had done very well in the ring but had retired from showing several years previously for medical reasons but had just decided to start again. Anyway, a roumour had got around that she was judging crufts the following year, and she got an invited to a show, all fees paid, which she was advised to attend... So, she got her 2 year old bitch who'd never been shown before out of the kennel the morning of the show and off she went! Groomed it briefly before she went in the ring. Won her class, Bitch CC and BOB!!! I asked her if the dog was good though, and her reply was "no, it was absolute rubbish, her movement was terrible and she showed awfully". She said she'd only kept the dog as a pet cos she'd got so attached to it!
So i think that maybe was slightly facey judging!!!
I find a lot of the time, with my labs and pug, i'll do really well one week then get kicked out the next Its maybe down to the judges preference of type etc but who knows. I think its sad that some judges dont judge fairly as we all pay our entry and we take our dog along hoping for a fair go at it, but i guess thats life! I had enough of that in the horsey world to thicken my skin enough for showing, but it is disheartening when you KNOW your dog is the best in the class to be beaten
Well it does happen because I know of two owners who have had their dogs shown by other well known breeders / exhibitors several times at different shows and been placed when handled by these people (and each time! - never chucked as with the owner!!!)
BUT - saying that, there are a lot of grumblings usually going on ringside, but this can be from unhappy people who have not had their own dog/s placed and therefore are just having a gripe (imo, cos they can't take the defeat!), so they criticise the judge. And also even though Tots has been placed quite well at some Open shows imo she has come up against some good dogs and been placed correctly. At champ level I feel she may struggle because I am so aware of her shortfalls now and I KNOW there are better dogs out there who must come before her!!!! However, each time a judge has gone over her I do feel that they like her and I can't really comment on that side because I'm not brilliant in the conformation side as have not had my training yet!!!!
SO - What do we take from that? Basically that the judge(hopefully) will use their commonsense and give the dog the placings as they see fit by the dog, not the handler - and that may upset some, but hopefully it is the correct decision on the day and if it is close then we understand that you judge to preferred type I s'pose!! Hey, you can never please all of the people all of the time!!!!
Different day - Different judge - Different result!!!!!
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: face or dog?
Oh Karl what a can of worms.....
I think with disapointment sometimes it is easy to say they picked the face. I think it is sometimes the confidence of the judge. Winners often stand out even second, when getting to thirds ect and you have two very good dogs, one from a 'face' and one you have NEVER seen before particularly in the higher classes I think many would panic and go for the 'safe' option. I have heard people say I like that dog but dont know it ....? ( what should it matter) but I think it does people do not want to be seen to give the wrong dog it. Some dogs win classes and CC as they are in their prime as has happened recently others win because maybe the judge becomes nervous of putting it down (they still are excellent dogs). I do get a little disheartened when experienced 'top' breeders take in other peoples dogs for them as this is just promoting the theory rather than the dog should win regardless of who shows it!
Another take on this is ..... how many, there are several judges out there would give a CC to a dog in a Novice class which seemed 3, 4 or five years old ??
I also think that when people give 'friends' awards they are often friends through shared love of a type of lab ??
Interesting question, what would your answers be ???
My opinion, I think it is probably somewhere between points 2 and 3. I think there are all types of judges and all sorts of judging. I think one of the important things usually is that many people have, through a little bit of success in small classes or under unknowledgeable judges, got an overinflated idea of how good their dog is.
You rarely hear the really top breeders complaining win or lose. BUT you CONSTANTLY hear the 'middle grounders' moaning and bitching Often people who may have been in it ages, BUT are still producing the same very average dogs they always did from the first pet they started with.
Then there are the people who complain about 'the judge always placing his own stuff'... maybe many dogs going back to his line. Facey? Or logical when you consider they will often have the type his line has through using his studs or buying in puppies from him then linebreeding on, and only a fool would not, after a few years, like what they themselves are producing.
I certainly too do better under allrounders. BUT that tends to be, not because as you hear so often they 'have no axe to grind, no favours to pay', but because they cannot know every tiny detail of every breed they judge so they look at movement a lot (something many big kennels fail on in our breed) and the overall stamp of the dog which can throw up some suprise results.
It would be crazy to say there are no facey or lazy judges out there, placing X,Y and Z because they *usually have good un's*. There are judges who give the impression they are judging by numbers with no excitment, flare or adrenaline going and they are almost bored judging the non qualifier classes.
A good dog does tend to seem to do well in the long run under many different judges from all over the place, even abroad. So personally I think we probably get to the best dogs in the end to showcase our breed in the *main*.... but yes the path to getting there is very varied in the feeling you get from certain judges about why they have or have not placed you or others.
I recently was chucked out in a big class at a championship show. Nothing new there (grin) but it was not the fact i was not placed that will make me not enter under that judge ever again but the fact they were terse, sharp, without so much as a 'good morning', and looked at their steward to ask them something when my dog was moving. I find that offensive - NOT the fact I wasn't placed. They couldn't even give me a minute and a half of their attention.
I think it is hard to break through, but mostly, if you put the wailing and bitching to one side, that is because few people in any hobby or sport have the eye, opportunity, money, time, and talent to breed consistantly fantastic dogs and only show them when they are looking good. The top names do and can.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Sorry should have written - to close my own opinion is it is easy to stand back and say all judging at the top end is facey, or most of it is. Its also easy to make excuses and say its not when there are some rotten apples... its plodding round the circuit over the years making a long list of 'never again's' and a short list of 'hell yes!'
Karl - come on lay your cards on the table - where do you stand as a ticket judge yourself...? Need I ask....
Surely when you stand in the middle of that ring at ticket time, you KNOW you can only please 'one and a half' people - it must be extremely difficult. I know awarding BOB's at open shows is hard enough sometimes with a ring full of people you know and dogs you at least 'quite' like (or they wouldn't have won their class!) so must be times 1000 with a green card in your hand...
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
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