Natasha, i could write for hours on your interesting post. i will *try* and stop myself because to be honest, I would mostly only be agreeing with you anyway.
I think there is something about the british culture, and even more so the North American culture that does not allow ourselves to be dictated to, EVEN when we know it is probably for the best overall. I don't think its about human rights and all that rainbow sweater business, i think its about deciding we need room to make our own minds up.
I'm not sure its for the good, BUT so to be TOLD, 'you HAVE to do this or HAVE to do that' somehow sits badly with our culture. There are European and Scandinavian countries that entirely consider it acceptable of course to be dictated to as when and from whom they can breed. It just wouldn't wash here as in so many things. take wearing seatbelts, thats not just to stop a puppy being badly bred thats to save our LIVES, but so many don't wear them, it took FOREVER for people to START wearing them and most of the US still DON'T wear them Yet buy a Scandinavian car a few years ago and it was one of the first to Beep if you didn't put your belt on as if many had 'forgotten' rather than were just not doing it because they didn't fancy it....
I am only extending a point not really arguing against the fact that being dictatorial about having to health test to register the puppies would be of benefit to the health of our breed. It would stop me having to write posts about buying from healthtested parents over and over and on the whole it would be fabulous!
BUT, you know, and I know the KC is NOT there to be a policeman. It is a business, a commercial enterprise, and if they turned away all the pups from unhealthtested parents in all breeds that *can* health test they would go under in about five minutes flat. Then where are we? Abnsolutely floating at sea without any chance of rescue. My feeling is they can only make suggestions and give advice, then our culture says we need to be left to make our own decisions.
We Brits like to play god, not have anyone above us on the ladder I feel
Thing is, what tests could they possibly impose? Just hips and eyes? That would be fine, and pretty reasonable, but when breed clubs also suggest Optigen and Elbows... where does it end? What about if a test for hearts came about? At what point do they add something to the list of 'have to do's'?
I am not arguing that it wouldn't be beneficial, as I say, just utterly unworkable.
We also breed on a scale far beyond anywhere else proportionately. Even the States only bred, I believe something like 300,000 Labrador puppies (registered) last year, we were close to 50,000 and we are a tiny island. I don't believe folks would stop breeding, there would just be more non KC pups than ever before which would just shift the problem into unrecorded waters which could cause more problems for already overbred bitches.
Its also a case of.... Ok, lets say the Kc said 'you must score hips'. Thats great but what becomes a 'fail'? The breed average? We wouldn't have Walpole and all his offspring if that were the case as his mother would never have been bred from....? We wouldn't have the only dog in this country currently to be a show ring champion AND have field trial awards without walpole... its so so hard....
Maybe a mating of under 40 total is acceptable or something? What criteria could be set? Because then you could get a mating with a sire with a score of 4 mated to a bitch with a 36 hip score... and so on.... which would be as undesireable really as mating an unscored dog! ;-(
So i just hear 'the kennel club should make health testing mandatory' continously about once a day from somewhere.... but really its impossible in a practical situation. Our KC is too large to go without 50% of its current income or more... which would be what it would lose by not accepting healthtested litters for registration. I don't know, maybe it should scale down, but really its just not going to happen.
But I know its on the surface what should happen.
I've talked enough
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
I wholeheartedly and absolutely agree that permenant ID should be mandatory for all dogs when being health tested. And should be CHECKED. It rarely happens and its a huge shame, however I am not sure all that much cheating goes on *really*. I'm sure it does, I'm not nieve, mostly I can only see cheating occuring really as regards hips and elbows because as regards Optigen and eyes the folks would be found out pretty quickly in the results of the offspring with it being 100% genetic and all that...
But yes agree, chipping or tattooing should be mandatory. When I raised that on my US breeder list there was an outcry however. 'WHY should we do this - dog breeding has always been done on a self policing basis'.... Even good old Optigen won't make chipping mandatory and unchipped dogs can be tested when it would give the test so much more credability TO make permnant ID mandatory before Optigen testing when you are talking 'Clear by PARENTAGE' being an actual recognised state of eye health for further breeding.
Bah!
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: kc or not?
[quote="Kyomii"]
JohnW wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, some people are sadly under the illusion that if a dog is not KC registered then it is no good/not worth having as a pet.
You can count me in that number. As far as I'm concerned, if the pup is not registered then I would have to ask why? A registered pup could be sold for well over £100 more than an unregistered dog so it is financially silly not to register. Unless of coursethe breeder could not register for some reason. Reasons could be, bred too young, bred too many litters, bred too old, bitch endorsed "Not for breeding", does not know the stud dog, stud dog not registered or of course the bitch not registered.
No, sorry, even as a pet I would want to know my pup is who the breeder says it is. If the pups are not registered there must be a reason. Yes I know registration is no guarantee, but it's the nearest thing we have.
Regards, John
We will have to agree to disagree then. I have had a dog who was not KC registered who gave me 16 wonderful years of his life, never suffered health issues and was a fantastic pet.
If you want to show or breed then yes, registration is important, and as you want to show your dogs, I can understand why you find it important.
hello all, my first post,
hope im not going to upset people here on my first outing.
why is it so important that the dogs have to be kc registered for showing either in field or ring? i understand about breeding but for showing, a piece of paper does not contribute to which dog is best looking or has best ability.
i have a 2 yr old bitch, black, and she has the most adorable temperment ever seen in a dog, not a typical greedy lab, as i can leave the sunday lunch on the work surface and wont even get up to sniff it, never chewed, never barks, never growled and only wants to please and play.
and yes she is not registered but this makes no diffrence to me as she is my girl.
a lot of people seem to buy for the status of look, i have a kc dog.
Is this just a bit of snobbery.
sorry to go on especially with my first post.
question.
my lab has champions in her parentage, as said she is not kc reg, as her mother wasnt but all her for parents were with champions in line for a few generations.
if the owner cant reg the dog, that means the kc are quite happy for all this pedigree to go to waste and fade away.
2nd question
if i ever decided to breed from her even tho she is not kc, could i still kc reg the pups.
Some pet owners who decide to breed - don't even know about registering litters
with the number of litters a bitch can produce being limited by the KC - some people register some litters and not others (and no i don't agree with it) and the kc also has an upper and lower age limit for bitches to have litters (unless you have special permission to have an over-aged litter).
Just because you have an unregistered dog does not stop you competing in "dog sports" - dogs not registered on the breed register, can be registered by owner to go on Activity Register - and compete in obedience, agility, working trials etc. but dogs on this register can not be shown in breed (except obviously companion dog shows).
Why was her mother not registered? And if the breeder wanted to breed why did they not get a registered dog in the first place? What proof do you have that the pedigree you have been given is anything other than a figment of the breeders imagination?
Quote:
if i ever decided to breed from her even tho she is not kc, could i still kc reg the pups.
Sorry, no. The pups could not be registered. (Only on the activities register.) Enjoy her for what she is.
Quote:
Some pet owners who decide to breed - don't even know about registering litters
Now this would really worry me! If the breeder did not know this I would have to ask, "Just how much does the breeder know about breeding, health checks and the like?" This would sound alarm bells.
Quote:
with the number of litters a bitch can produce being limited by the KC - some people register some litters and not others (and no i don't agree with it) and the kc also has an upper and lower age limit for bitches to have litters (unless you have special permission to have an over-aged litter).
Sorry but you seem to be advocating puppy farming here!!! I simply can’t believe you can mean that you believe these are good reasons? Please tell me thats not so!!!
Quote:
Just because you have an unregistered dog does not stop you competing in "dog sports" - dogs not registered on the breed register, can be registered by owner to go on Activity Register - and compete in obedience, agility, working trials etc. but dogs on this register can not be shown in breed (except obviously companion dog shows).
A gundog cannot take part in gundog competition unless registered. The Activities register is NOT enough for Field Trials or Working Tests.
i certainly AM not advocating puppy farming FAR FROM IT - i was just stating that is a reason why some litters are not registered............ i am a bit shocked that you have read into my message that i am into puppy farming..........
you will note i didn't include field trials or working tests in my list of dog sports that dogs who are on the Activity Register can do. Working Trials, as I imagine you know, is a totally different sport
and i wouldn't be buying off the pet dog owner who doesn't know about dogs being registered...................... again i was just suggesting another reason why a pup may not be kc regsitered
Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your post. The KC has set the number of litters and breeding ages with the welfare of the bitch in mind. Also there are regulations on the minimum age of such things as hip scoring so a bitch under a certain age cannot be scored.
As I've said so many times, I have nothing against crossbreeds and mongrels, I've owned some myself, but what I am against is the deliberate breeding of them. Also people breeding without taking the trouble to find out what is involved. As in law, ignorance is no excuse. There have been plenty of books available for many years. Kay White's "The Book Of The Bitch" being one wonderful example, and in recent years of course, the internet is a source of info. All the info is out there if people really want to do it properly, so if they dont then one can only assume that they dont care.
apology accepted but I think on forums people can jump to conclusions as the written word does not convey the full meaning of the spoken word
there are lots of things I don't consider right - in both showing and competing (whatever sport/activity) like getting rid of dogs who aren't winning and replacing them with youngsters ........... Rehoming dogs when their breeding days are over etc... I think the skill is getting the best out of what you have - at whatever level - and giving a dog a good life .......
Luckily loads of dogs are much loved and have long happy lives in one home....
No.of Labs: 1
Lab Names: Marley (Coco Caramel Boy) DOB 11.04.07 Indi (Newf) DOB 28.6.07 Always remembering Charlie who died 12.06.07 run free my baby x
apology accepted but I think on forums people can jump to conclusions as the written word does not convey the full meaning of the spoken word
there are lots of things I don't consider right - in both showing and competing (whatever sport/activity) like getting rid of dogs who aren't winning and replacing them with youngsters ........... Rehoming dogs when their breeding days are over etc... I think the skill is getting the best out of what you have - at whatever level - and giving a dog a good life .......
Luckily loads of dogs are much loved and have long happy lives in one home....
I am with you totally here, the dog is nothing more than a status symbol in cases of this nature - got rid of/replaced when it cannot give to the status anymore.
I disagree with it totally, because the dogs welfare is not being considered - additionally, some show dogs for that status too.... "
"Even though you have won me this medal and that cup, (whether it be show/working) I have had enough of you now, you have outlived your relevance to me so I am going to replace you/get rid of you/sell you on..."
It happens all over the place. To me, a dog is for life, whether it is showed/worked or a pet.
I must make it clear though that only SOME owners are like this, not all!
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Yet buy a Scandinavian car a few years ago and it was one of the first to Beep if you didn't put your belt on as if many had 'forgotten' rather than were just not doing it because they didn't fancy it....
