Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: Bad breeder
Well, I'm really anoyed with a lab breeder.
My mother has been looking for a lab puppy for ages, because she loves KC and I already had Bailey booked so she has been l;ooking through the papers etc for breeders.
She found an advert the other day for lab pups, fully vaccinated, wormed, vet checked, KC REGistered,
she travelled about 80 miles to collect the puppy and picked one out, paid for the pup and then the lady told her that the KC forms havent come back from KC yet and she would have to post it on to her as soon as she gets them !!
I'm still waiting for baileys form but from KC, so I phoned them up to ask about Bailey and asked about my mothers pup also, apparently they havent been registered at all yet, they have no record of a litter registered to that Bitch.. they said that if the breeder has only just sent them off then it may take a week to show on their system..
so now my mum is worrying that the dog isnt KC reg, or isnt going to be..
We've checked out the mother and she is 2 yrs old and registered, but we have no idea of the sire and if he is registered.. it looks as if it may turn out ok but still my mother is worrying about it now.
what is the chances that she could have been conned, surely a breeder wouldnt do that because she could so easily report her ?
I've told her to keep a copy of the advert she replied to to prove they were advertised KC reg..
what do we do now ?
the breeder seems a bit cluless, i think she bred off pets and is inexperienced..
my mother will never breed the pup, she is just a pet, she is 8 weeks.. so as far as hip scores etc go then she only has to worry about her own dog, but still..
is it common for breeders to not have the KC forms ready at the time of purchase ? she loves the pup already and doesnt want to take it back..
on the plus side, I should have Baileys form through in the next few days and then I'll know her line.. cant wait..
Does your mum know the the KC reg name of the sire? if not, can she call the breeder and ask.......make out she just wants to know etc.
I would have thought it not common to not have the KC documents ready when the pups are ready to be collected, unless there have been refusals in the names that the breeders chose to delay things It doesn't take long for everything to come back through the post and it's even quicker if you register online I believe.
I would have thought it not common to not have the KC documents ready when the pups are ready to be collected, unless there have been refusals in the names that the breeders chose to delay things
Unfortunately - it is more common than you might think - out of my three, only one gave me the paperwork with the pup (well before actually) and that was Solo.
I too a risk with Hally I guess and it turned out OK - but not having bought a dog for well over 20 years, this was how things used to work - but in reality these days, allowing for the technology, the fact that you can even register litters online and my own experiences with how quickly the KC have turned things around (although haven't registered a litter yet) - there doesn't really seem there should be an excuse for it.
I know that if I buy in any future pups, I wouldn't take pup without paperwork unless I knew the breeder very very well.
So, in summary, yes, it does happen? is the breeder to be trusted or not? at this stage, not really much else you can do other than wait - and if nothing comes through, sue them for misrepresentation in their advertising through the small claims court (and I have details of someone you can also pass the info onto - - keep us posted )
Well she has kind of fallen out with the breeder over it and has already phoned her several times to get the dam name and dob and her full details, so she feels awkward phoning again and asking after the sire.
I will maybe phone the breeder myself if this continues..
the thing that concerns me is not that she hasnt had the forms back yet, it is that KC have not received her application or payment at all yet, as far as they are concerned they know nothing of a litter to this dam.
I'm hoping that the breeder has literally only just sent them off and that will explain the lack of knowledge by KC, but why would a brreder wait 8 weeks to send off payment and register a litter when she knew she would be selling them at 8 weeks ? there have been no previous registration request or any application at all, so she hasnt come up with names already taken or anything like that./.. the breeder as yet hasnt applied..
I phoned trading standards today and they said they would investigate on the grounds that the advert stated they WERE KC reg when as yet they are not and no application has been made, I mean kc reg means they are registered right, not "going to be" at a later date.. which is why my mother travelled 80 miles. she asked the breeder on the phone if they were kc reg and the breeder said yes, as it turns out she meant "yeah im gonna register them soon"
Well i just hope that the breeder sorts this out asap.. how long should i give her, if it turns out they are never going to be registered the puppy will need to go back or the breeder will have to give a partial refund because of the extra cost my mtoher paid for a kc reg dog.. i mean she could have picked one up in the paper not kc reg for £150-£200..
do how long does she have to do anything ?
" what is the chances that she could have been conned, surely a breeder wouldnt do that because she could so easily report her ? "
Joanne, you see, there is no 'reporting'. The KC is not a policing type 'body' it is just really the heart of the dog world running events and trying to promote responsible ownership and so on. To advertise pups as KC reg when they are not would only be a matter for the advertising standards agency or maybe a consumer rights group. Nor would the KC take any part other than maybe a strongly worded letter (maybe) to the breeder to say not to falsely advertise again.
There is a conception that people who breed must be somehow 'approved' or 'part of' the kennel club. Maybe 'listed' or 'registered' with the kennel club. This is not the case. The KC just provides a service, should people who breed a litter of puppies wish to use it, to register those puppies. There is no 'registered or listed' breeders and so no comeback if they do something underhand except through a legal route if it is a severe action.
" I've told her to keep a copy of the advert she replied to to prove they were advertised KC reg.. "
That will be good for your solicitor but the KC won't take any part as above. your solicitor will probably say 'so why didn't you ask for the docs?' when you say she didn't yet have them the solicitor will PROBABLY say 'so why didn't you walk away or withold payment till you had them' from a legal point of view.
" what do we do now ? "
just wait, and keep in touch. Myself I find it very shoddy if a breeder does not have the registration documents to hand when their puppies leave.The Kc is SO quick returning documents now, and with online registration avaliable I believe there is really no excuse, BUT BUT BUT MANY breeders are hopeless with paperwork, slow at getting their backsides in gear and DO leave it to the last minute to register puppies, meaning no docs are avaliable when the pups leave.
To be honest, it was your mums responsibility not to hand over all her money if she was leaving without something with the agreement that she would pay the balance if and when the papers came.
You say that you don't care there are no hip scores on the parents because 'you only have your puppy to think about as she won't breed from it'. So why be bothered if the puppy is KC reg or not? Health is FAR FAR more important and that has been knowingly overlooked. You recently asked for a copy of my puppy pack - it explians in there why buying from hip scored parents is so important. Was there a reason you didn't advise her to go to a decent breeder?
You may find they turn up. they may not, but you really have no comeback. I would just keep in touch each week pushing her along.
Di
Last edited by Diana on Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Reading your reply to Sue, to be honest it sounds like she has no idea what being KC registered means. Many poor or totally inexperienced breeders just think it means 'pedigree' meaning mum and dad were both purebred labradors.
Also a breeder who does not health test is an misled, shoddy or poor breeder usually just trying to do it 'on the cheap' so therefore misleading you on documents would not be something that would raise many eyebrows either due to not caring on her part OR simply not KNOWING. If she wouldn't pay £150 to hip score and eye test her bitch for the sake of the pups then, to be honest, when she sees the registration fee per puppy I doubt she will fork out £60/70/80 or more to register them now.
Can I ask - why, if your mother is not going to breed or compete will the puppy need to go back. that uproots the puppy and throws its life and future in turmoil. Surely it was your responsibility to leave with the documents, or buy from a better breeder? Not having kc documents is neither here nor there in your circumstance as they only mean something when you use that status on the puppies to find a good breeder OR you wish to breed or compete? Would she REALLY return a pet puppy she had bonded with because it wasn't what she paid for in terms of documents which she will never use?
I can understand you demanding some money back but sadly I doubt you will get it unless you REALLY scare her with genuine harsh solicitor letters.
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Your title says 'bad breeder'
In my eyes what makes her a bad breeder is the fact that the dam and sire haven't been health checked. That in itself would make me walk away
I'm sure registering a litter doesn't cost that much either, does it? So no excuse for not doing it when it's been stated in the advert that they are KC reg.
As has been said, I would be more concerned about the health tests of the sire and dam than anything else.
Aside, this is from the Kennel Clubs own website on this situation:
Information Guide - Kennel Club puppy registration
08-Jun-07
What to expect from a breeder:
If the dog is advertised as Kennel Club registered, you should make sure that you see the Kennel Club registration certificate for the puppy before you take the puppy home. If the registration certificate is not available when you take your puppy, ensure that you receive an undertaking in writing that this will be sent to you when received from the Kennel Club.
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
yeah i can see what you all mean, but the puppy is only 8 weeks and they havent bonded a lot yet..
i guess in terms of buying the puppy, whether to return her or not, thats the difference between my mother saving hard for £500 to buy a kc registered puppy or paying £150 for a non registered one should could have got locally, plus the petrol to travel 80 miles to get a puppy who was registered.
she could have had three going on 4 non registered pupps for the same price as this one, but she wanted a kc registered one because I told her to get a kc registered one.
I guess some believe that a kc reg puppy has more chance of being born to a responsible breeder than those that breed and sell them cheap in the paper.. and i advise her to go kc reg even though puppy is just a pet and not going to be bred.
it isnt about the puppy, so much as being ripped off out of triple the money for a dog that doesnt have the papers that were promised.
when she picked up the puppy, she asked me if it was ok to have the papers sent to her and i thought yeah sure, ive heard of a few breeders who do this, so i told her yeah and she paid and took the puppy, that and having travelling 80 miles for a pup and fallen in love with her etc..
but then at that point i didnt realise the breeder have not even APPLIED for registration, which is concerning.. she was lead to believe that the forms have been all sent back and paid and were just waiting a few days for KC to post them to her, they'd been delayed kind of thing.
Hip and eye checks.. yeah thats pretty rubbish and I'm not happy about that considering the price she paid, and the dog may have hips problems further down the line, and she didnt know about hip checks in advance, i wasnt even here to go with her she she got puppy on her really, except for a quick phone call for advice.. how could i tell her to walk away and leave the pup she had fallen for after travelling 80 miles just coz there were no hip/eye checks.. I told her theres a risk of hip problems etc yes, but there is even with a scored dog isnt there ? isnt never a guarentee right ?
if anything goes wrong with the puppy she will pay for the best health care, whether she had been hip scored or not, and the puppy has been born and someone has got to give her a home right? she has to be loved by someone, so why not my mum.. money wise for health expenses - she can do that for a much loved pet..
the breeder shouldnt have bred them without hip scoring but she did.. and this did happen like it did.. guess i cant change that.. my mum loves the pup.. the pup isnt scored.. we'll keep our fingers crossed on that one.
the whole thing is about the point, she feels pretty annoyed that she paid three times the price and no papers, she paid for kc papers. there are puppys up the road three miles away for £150 pedigree no papers, she could have saved a fortune ! but she wanted to go on my advice and get kc reg.. she wanted a registered puppy..
and not just my advice i guess, i lot of people feel a pedigree isnt really pedigree unless its got papers.. silly i know and not true.. but no papers and it just isnt worth that much and takes away from the pedigree, anyone know what im saying ? whether you want to breed or not, or show or not..
actually she is interested in agility and showing the dog, she doesnt want to breed at all, but maybe showing..
so, if those papers dont come through.. you see how she is going to feel.. it isnt about a worthless bit of paper.. its about £350 extra plus the £35 petrol for nothing at all. maybe even a dog who can turn out with health problems.. and i feel rubbish coz i advised her on it..
if the litter have been applied for or kc had some knowledge of them. i wouldnt be half as worried, id know they would come eventually because i would know she had started the ball rolling.. but we were concerned because 8 weeks old litter being sold and she hasnt even applied or paid for registration yet, and all my mother was given was her vaccination card with "labrador 8 weeks" and her first parvo vac on it.
that is all.
Those of us like my mum who dont have internet access and dont join these great groups, sometimes havent got a clue about hip scoring or anything like that, she bought a pup as a pet that she would adore and trusted the breeder because they were advertised as vaccinated, wormed, fully vet checked and KC REGISTERED.. sounds responsible doesnt it, to someone who hasnt got a clue.. more so than a dog who has nothing at all with it.. and so she paid the extra money.
I hope the papers come through for her otherwise im gonna feel terrible, sending the puppy back isnt something she would want to do no, but if the breeder insists on that then maybe she will have no choice, like i said the puppy is very young and she could buy three and a half for the same price local.. not that she's ever find a half of one mind..;0)
she will be devestated yes, but you know what i mean..
and as for the bad breeder thing, not just the health checks, but the lack of info given, the fact she doesnt even know the sires name ofhand or the dam, she cant remember when they were born, they drink milk and eat a bucket of bakers complete a day, they got fleas and we have no proof of worming, she didnt get any hip scoring or eye checks or nothing for them.. she didnt give a receipt, she didnt do anything really that ab reeder is suppost to do. but what can you do.. walk away yeah, but ive already addressed that one..
Fingers crossed guys.. everything will be ok.. i hope so..
KC said they currently have a week turn over on reg documents, it takes no longer than a week to receive them back..
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It doesn't take long for everything to come back through the post and it's even quicker if you register online I believe.
- out of my three, only one gave me the paperwork with the pup (well before actually) and that was Solo.
- keep us posted )
