Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Information Guide - Thinking of using your dog at stud?
The following guide has been taken from the Kennel Club website, please see www.thekennelclub.org.uk for more info.
We thought this article would be helpful to our members, so have therefore added it to our breeding section.
Taken From the KC Website
Information Guide - Thinking of using your dog at stud?
You will probably find that breeders or breeding kennels are not usually interested in using privately owned dogs for stud purposes, unless the dog has some special qualifications or show merit, or has the pedigree that they require for their breeding programme.
Before breeding from your dog, the Kennel Club advises that you check with your veterinary surgeon, your breed club and/or your dog’s breeder to find out whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect your breed, for which there is an available test (e.g. hip dysplasia and eye conditions). There are several health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested. You will find that the owners of most bitches would only wish to use those dogs that have been examined under the appropriate schemes. Similarly as a responsible dog owner, you should ensure that any bitch to which your dog is to be mated has also been tested under these schemes
In order to register your dog’s progeny with the Kennel Club, you will need to ensure that the dog is in your registered ownership. You will also need to ensure that your dog’s Kennel Club registration does not carry any breeding restriction. If there are any, you will need to discuss this further with the person from whom you obtained the dog, as any breeding restrictions will need to be removed before the registration of a litter can take place. In most cases it will be the breeder who has placed the restriction, and they will therefore be the person empowered to remove it.
The terms and conditions of a mating do not fall within the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club. It is therefore advisable that any breeding terms or stud fees should be arranged by mutual agreement in writing between the owner of the dog and the owner of the bitch before the mating takes place.
As a general point, if a dog has not previously been used at stud, the owner might charge a nominal fee covering expenses etc. Once the dog has been proven (i.e. has produced puppies), the stud fee may be reviewed for any future matings according to the value of the dog as a proven sire, and the quality of his progeny.
A guide to an appropriate stud fee may be obtained from studying the advertisement columns in the canine press, as breeders may advertise their dogs for stud. Alternatively you can contact your nearest breed club, who may be able to give you advice on this and any other matters relating to your breed.
Addresses and telephone numbers of breed club secretaries can be obtained from the Kennel Club - call 0870 606 6750 or visit the Breed Standards web pages.
Food for thought…
The following article was written by Mr M Stockman MRCVS and gives a further insight into using your dog at stud:
To the uninitiated it would seem that the best way of making money out of the dog game is to own a successful dog of a popular breed. You simply advertise him as being available at public stud and then sit back and watch the fees roll in! It costs no more to keep him than if he were not at stud, the bitches do the travelling and you get your fee when the mating is complete, not when the litter is born… what could be easier?
Doubtless there are people who try to do just that; and there are probably those who actually get away with it. But what should happen? What should the dog owner do in order to make certain that he or she is doing the best for the breed?
First of all let’s ask a few pertinent questions:
Is the dog fertile? Is he possessed of the libido to do the job effectively? The mere fact that he has a tendency to chase every bitch in sight whether she’s in season or not, doesn’t necessarily mean that he will have a clue what to do when it comes to the point; and if the owner hasn’t either, frustration of all concerned is liable to be the order of the day.
To be honest, you can read up just so much about mating techniques, but the experience of a knowledgeable breeder and stud dog handler is the most useful asset you can have when the chips are down. In truth, the only really fool proof way of finding out what your dog is like at stud, is to give him the chance with a sensible bitch (preferably not a maiden herself) and see that you enlist experienced help if you possibly can. As far as finding out whether your dog is fertile, you can take all the samples you like, but there is no substitute for the real thing in the shape of a litter in the nest.
But, that said, shouldn’t we be looking a lot further back before we get this far?
Have we checked with fellow breed enthusiasts about what hidden problems there may be within the breed? Have we had the dog’s eyes examined in a breed that may suffer from inherited eyeproblems? Has the dog been x-rayed under the Kennel Club/ British Veterinary Association hip-scoring scheme where this is appropriate? In one or two breeds it would be sound policy to have the heart tested. I am not trying to suggest that these examinations are universally needed, but most of us, if we are honest, know which problems occur in the breeds in which we have a special interest.
Even if the dog turns out to be a paragon of virtue, is he of such merit that he truly offers the future generation real benefit? It is undoubtedly very flattering to have somebody come up to you just after you have won yet another puppy or junior class and ask if the apple of your eye is available at stud. If the enquirer is one of the better known and successful breeders in your breed, it is usually a feather in your dog’s cap; if on the other hand, the question comes from the sort of person who runs to every new champion in the making, be careful. Used on the wrong bitches, he may well sire progeny which will do him no good at all. Be ready with an answer, which gives you a “get-out”, such as seeing how the pedigree would click, before the question is ever asked.
If you have done all the right things in relation to such tests as hip scoring, don’t let your dog down by allowing him to be used on bitches which have not had their hips checked similarly. I know all the stories about how “this person arrived with the bitch already in season, and she had never heard about hip dysplasia, and anyway it was only a pet bitch so they weren’t interested in all this posh Kennel Club stuff”!
And then they go on: “after all it’s better that they should use a dog that had been scored than one that hadn’t; and if I had refused they would have only gone to the next dog down the road”.
Well let them!
There will still be those who will merely say: “Oh, that’s just Stockman rabbiting on about inherited disease; the vets are all the same.” But surely those who put their dogs at stud in whatever sphere ought to take some responsibility for what they sire. However busy life may be for a breeder, it doesn’t take long to keep a reasonably accurate check on what a dog’s offspring do. It is lovely to see his progeny winning in the ring. In some ways it’s even better than doing the winning yourself. We all like to hear when the good news comes. It’s not so funny when we learn that one’s favourite has sired a cryptorchid, an epileptic, or a dysplastic. Note that I said that he’d sired it; that doesn’t mean he is necessarily the one who is responsible for the defect. We don’t know enough about the genetics of many conditions to be able to say whether or not both sire and dam must have contributed to the problem. So the sire should not be condemned unless it is positively known that the genetic input responsible for a particular defect has to come from both parents.
However, we blame bitch owners for mating their bitches without having any idea of who’s going to be in the queue for the pups when they are whelped, and rightly so in many cases. If the owner of the sire had questioned the mating, had tried to dissuade the eager novice-breeder, or would take responsibility for helping find the right homes, the rescue services wouldn’t be strained to bursting point.
Although this article was written several years ago, it is still relevant in today’s society, and definitely provides food for thought.
The Kennel Club does not currently keep a register of stud dogs and therefore if you wish to use your dog at stud you should contact your local breed club for more information and advice.
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: Standing a Dog at Stud - The reality.
I have been half meaning to write this for ages but only got round to it today after another memorable half hour occured to add to the list
Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance
Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:
1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.
What do you do?
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown
What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.
2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!
3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.
4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....
5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.
6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.
7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.
Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!
9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.
10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.
Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.
So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.
....Cos it isn't
Di
Last edited by Diana on Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Oh my life!!!! No flowers?? No moonlight??Not even, "if you really loved me you would do it!"??
Please tell me that your boys at least promise to respect their lady-friends in the morning!!!
Seriously, that is not good bedtime reading! Its an excellent reality check and no way on earth would I be up to the job of owning a stud dog. To be honest, I quail at the thought of ever letting a girl of mine go through such (I almost feel inclined to put brutal, but I don't know if thats to harsh?) trauma.....please tell me that its not always like that!
Just out of curiousity, and at the risk of sounding hopelessly innocent and amphropomorphic, if the bitch was allowed to chose her own chap, would it be as brutal?
Off to lie down in a darkened room with a stiff G&T!!!!
Wow that's very informative, scary, sad and funny post.
Thanks for writing it. I really hope people do take all this into account. The number of people who only think about the cute puppies at the end and nothing about the actual breeding. Do you mind if I print it out to give to lady I work with who wants to put her dog to stud?
Thanks for that Di, Very interesting reading even though i plan to never breed my dog. I am constantly arguing with my Mum at the moment who has a bitch and keeps saying how lovely it would be to have a litter from her, I have shown her some other articles saying how difficult it is and i will show her this too as its a great 'other side' perspective.
Katrina
Put it this way Becs, there are bitches who give a strong impression, whatever their medical hormone levels, that they prefer the fairer sex
I don't want to shock you but innocent Ida was born from the sweetest gentlest bitch in the world world, who, turns into a sabre tooth tiger when mated. To give you an idea, jades first 'chap' was Dylan, a capable, strong, handsome (grin) guy she was extremely familiar with as she lived with him and adored him, following him around before her season like a stalker, flirting.
But come to day 13 and her first mating and she nearly killed him and me! My own dog, my own bitch and I had to screech for help from husband as serious injury was about to occur. Then as they parted after the seriously rough and lengthy tie, she wagged her tail and licked his ears. Dogs must think - Pah! WOMEN! Can't mate em' without dramatics, can't muzzle em'!
Yes its perfectly straightforward sometimes in terms of aggression, conception, judging when to mate them etc... but its almost ALWAYS hard to get them physcially mated as, men generally, if left alone, have HORRIBLE aiming skills, shall we say, and we (read that as bitch here for mating) would lie (stand) there all day waiting for him to shoot and score (shall we say)....unaided
I actually do put the stereo on in the garage whilst matings take place but more because bitch owners are usually VERY nervous and it calms them, and, if they are boring, we have something to chatter about for 20 minutes whilst the dogs are tied and we sit on the floor!
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Thank you Di, a very interesting, enlightening and scary reality check......
Out of interest what's the ratio of problematic matings to those that do have a touch of the romance about them?
Molly's mating with Walter was 100% (and quite rightly) assisted but the attraction was mutual, no muzzle needed, Walter licked her all over and even cleaned her up afterwards!
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Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!
