getting my lab to bring the dummy back to me

wolf

i have a 9 month old lab bitch she loves finding and fetching her dummy but will not come back to me she plays a game i have had all sorts of advice but wondered if there was anything different she will come back to
me when not carrying her dummy or any other toy what have i done wrong?
i got her at 6 months from working parents

Clare · Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject:

Hi Wolf,
You need to speak to JohnW on here! I have been taking my year old bitch to URC training classes and have the same problem, JohnW suggested that when she runs off with the dummy I become really interested in a blade of grass in front of me instead of her and this works a lot of the time, she gets curious and then has to come and see what I have. When she does bring the dummy back I've been advised to stoke her a lot and give her a lot of calm praise first, not to try taking the dummy off her the second she arrives. My Lab is from working lines too and her breeder (who has trained many gundogs) has suggested an extension to this in that when she comes to see why the grass is so interesting you can produce a second dummy from your pocket and toss it up in the air a few times, then your dog wants to come to join in your game instead of playing hers and then you can calmly stroke her before asking for her dummy, giving it back, asking for the dummy etc. If this still doesn't work her breeder has suggested actually getting someone to throw a second dummy to me while my Lab is off playing with the first one (but watching me) and if needs be play a sort of piggy in the middle game to get her back. I haven't tried this yet as unfortunately my Lab has been a bit under the weather the last few days and it's been far too hot here to train anyway. I'm not claiming to be an expert on this, no way! Just passing on advice that others have kindly given me, it might be different from things you've tried, but I'll end by saying I know the problem!
Good luck and try to track down JohnW!!
Clare

JohnW · Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject:

Just to let you know I've seen this and I'll be around later this evening.

Regards, John

MrsMac · Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject:

I had exactly the same problem with my year old Lab Lotty, the children and her thought it was a great game to play chase, consequently when she had something in her mouth she wasnt interested in retrieving, you couldnt get anywhere near her. It took a lot of time and patience, but I used liver treats or sausages - her favourite, every time I threw anything for her if she didn.t come back I just turned my back on her and ignored her, she eventually realised that unless she brought it back right to my feet she wouldnt get the treat. She did catch on and now she is brilliant at retrieving.

JohnW · Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Wolf.
In any training, if something's not going right then stop it! Think about it, if you continue you are reinforcing the incorrect response every time you do it. The game your dog is playing becomes the exercise. What you need is something different, something where you can train exactly The responce you want and where your dog cannot get it wrong.

Clare has told you about "The important piece of grass" trick. It might sound silly but it really does work!

Another possibility is a narrow fenced in (Or hedged) path. A place where there is no chance of getting past you. I have in the past used a tarmac path between some factories on an industrial estate. Not exactly the kind of place you would think for gundog training but a little bit of lateral thinking can turn up all sorts of suitable places!

With a young dog I try to organise a backing fence or hedge behind me when retrieving. I stand hard up against the fence, making it impossible for the dog to run around behind me.

One last idea. Something I've not done before but have been thinking about trying with Amy, is to erect a triangle fence on my lawn. An old piece of chicken netting and a few garden canes is all that’s needed. The sides only need to be about 10 or 12 foot long. Now by standing at the pointed end and tossing the dummy towards the wide end it means that the nearer your dog gets to you the closer the fence directs her.

A few last small points.
Always crouch down as she comes in. It tends to be a non threatening and non "Chase" position.

In common with most working gundog people, I never use treats. The reasons why, particularly in retrieving is that in order to take the treat first the dog must let go of the dummy. This can so easily mean that instead of delivering to hand the dog will start dropping the dummy in order to gain the treat even sooner.

Never make big changes when training. If you have a nice retrieve at 6 foot don't try the next one at 30 foot, your dog won’t relate the two. Always work up in very small stages.

Never be in too much hurry to take the dummy. Make PLENTY of quiet calm fuss of your dog first. You want the thought in your dog's mind that you are pleased she brought the dummy to you, NOT that as soon as she gets to you she is going to loose the dummy! More problems are caused by grabbing the dummy too quickly than anything else! It's a major No No!

Regards, John

jigman · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: Retrieving

Sorry for your troubles here. If you had this 9 month old from the 49th day on, you could have avoided this trouble. However, you are going to need to start over as if from square one. The problem (more than likely) is that your dog is being possessive of the retrievel object as if it is his/her toy. This is a very common problem with folks who have little knowledge of training hunting labs. In early training (playing) at 8 weeks old or so, you can stuff a sock with rags etc., and get the puppy excited about it and throw it. The fun is in the chase!! that is why it is so important to NOT HANG ON TO IT IN EARLY DAY OF DEVELOPING RETRIEVAL DESIRE!!! The reward for the puppy is for you to throw it again and again. That way the puppy does not associate you with keeping the dummy, bumper etc. Possessiveness is developed when you hang on too long early on. Now, you need to start over and it will not be easy. Take pup and get them excited about the dummy...THROW IT...At first your dog will keep doing the same thing as before...you need to convince the dog you will throw it immediately (at first upon getting it from them).
Only in older dogs that have been started properly can you begin to hold onto the dummy longer. I would suggest eliminating dog toys, balls etc for a while too. Only use bumpers or dummies. Toys in early stages of development (except chew toys) can result in possessiveness as well. In a pups early life the retrieving thing should be very lax and playfull, keep it fun, create desire. Later, especially after your puppy has totally learned SIT,STAY,COME in that order.....usually complete by 12 -20 weeks depending on the skill of the trainer....and is convinceed you will throw the dummy as its reward promptly upon retrieval, you will have it! But you need to go back as if the pup was 8-9weeks old. Iwish I could tell you different. The only other way is to go to the unnatural, (though still used by many gundog trainers) is too have the dog professionally force trained to retrieve if its that important to you. Unless you are a knowledgeable trainer DO NOT attempt to force train your pup yourself. Rather, go back to square one as indicated. Also, buy yourself a copy of GAMEDOG by Richard Wolters. Good Luck.

dandog · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject:

I have a question regarding dummies etc. Dan is 8 months and we have been going to a gun dog training group once a week since he was around 5 months. He's coming on really well although we do have the odd blip when he behaves like a typical teenager and turns stone deaf! We don't want a top notch gun dog we would just like to do a little picking up on a local shoot and I just enjoy watching him do what he was bred for. I am a total and complete novice but am really enjoying it and love watching his enthusiasm. I actually burst into tears when he retrieved a dummy from a deep pond a couple of weeks ago and swam back on to the bank and brought the dummy back to me!

Anyway - (get to the point woman) - we all play with him throwing balls or ropey things for him in the garden. He then tries to avoid giving the toy up and invites you to chase him. I NEVER use the dummy in the garden as a game - only at the training class. Will he, or rather does he, know the difference between them? Can he or will he be able to differentiate between 'work' and play or am I ruining him? He is much better at bringing a dummy back to me than a toy - which he just wants to be chased for, and we've obviously been told not to grab the dog or wrestle the dummy from them. I also think he learns a lot from watching the other dogs working - although its a novice group there are obviously differences in ages and ability, but he never takes his eye off whoever is doing an exercise. Should we stop playing with him?

Philippa

JohnW · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Philippa.
I play with Anna with toys in the garden and have never known her mix the two things up. I never use retrieve commands when playing, nor the whistle. In every thing I do I try to make play as different to work as possible.

Saying that, I only “Play Retrieve” with Amy in the garden. At 10 weeks old there is no way that she could hope to differentiate the difference. It’s a question of teaching what you want first then teach “Play” as a separate thing.

Just because a dog is a “Working dog” does not mean that it cannot have a little fun occasionally. My dogs are my friends first and workers second.

Regards, John

Clare · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:

Hi Philipa
Just wondering where you go to training classes, I see that you are in East Sussex which is where my Lab is from and I believe that her breeder holds weekly classes. Maybe one and the same?
Clare

dandog · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject:

Hi John

Thanks so much for your reply - I'm relieved I'm not mucking it up! Although Dan is first and foremost a pet and my constant companion, he is so responsive and enjoys it so much that it seemed a waste not to try and do a bit of work with him. I was just worried I was spoiling and undoing any training I was doing. I never use the whistle in the garden or allow the children to use it or give any retrieve commands when playing. I take the whistle on walks though and use it when I really want him to come back when I haven't seen him for a while! I almost faint every time he comes back! It also stops me sounding like a fishwife in the woods! I really think he's taken in the difference between the dummy and toys already - his behaviour is so different.

The club we go to, Clare, is the Ashburnham Gundog Group. Yes, the lady who runs it breeds chocolate labbies and hungarian vislas (spelling?). Funny if it was one and the same!

Philippa