erm scuff/scuffing is what the kids do to there shoes
it was a cuff or a clip round the ear where I came from
I thought when people were talking about scruffing/scuffing they were talking about how Becs described it,grabbing scruff of neck and putting on the ground.
Have never "scuffed" a dog but have seen it done.
I have grabbed a dog by the scruff of the neck though,if theres nothing else to hold onto or they need taking control of quickly.
I don't use time outs with the dogs as a punishment,a snarling mother with pmt is enough to make everone run in our house
I will put pup in his crate for a while if hes being a pain in the ar#e and I need to do something without being pounced on
yes I do use time outs for the kids if they've been real horrors cause I don't see the point in sending them to there bedroom for being naughty when they all have there own electrical store and toys r us in there rooms
but the thought of my mother waving her slipper around in her nighty is enough to put me off using anything other than a time out.
I think this fits into this thread kind of without me posting seperately (sorry for crashing)....
I have been having a bit (understatement) of an issue with Basil (see thread - posessiveness or fixation )
Today someone gave him one of these toys He dropped it on request as we have been practicing But then they gave it back to him and possessiveness started.
I am uncomfortable with scruffing and scuffing as i dont really understand what to do. Someone has recommended this and it worked quite successfully (it's got to the stage where i have to have a consequence of him ignoring the command that means i take control)
Does this sound okay? Has anyone used this before? This is effectively securing him in a submissive position - could this generate other problems
Basically you hold the dog and engineer him into lying on his back (not violentally just confidentally).
You then straddle (not sitting on him just to stop him unrolling)
You then wait.
Dog cannot really move away or (more importantly for us) eat the toy.
After 2 or 3 minutes (it felt ages) Basil released the toy and we all get up reward and celebrate.
He wasnt stressed and wriggly by the move, but equally he wasnt waggging tail thinking it a great game.
I think the point is that i'm eliminating the sporadic reward he's getting by managing to eat the toy. so in time he'll just accept my command as he will know in the end he's going to give it up anyway.
Ps I did get stared at but at least the situation was calm, I was patient and he didnt eat a toy.
Please share your views, I have to sort this out and there are no qualified behaviourists locally
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: alpha roll
What you are doing is called an 'alpha roll' This practice was born out of a theory (dominance theory) widely accepted during the 70s and 80s, that all dogs seek to increase their rank or status within the pack or family. Putting the dog forciblly into a submissive position was thought to consolidate the owner's position as leader of the pack.
Dominance theory has been hotly disputed over the years and is now widely disapproved of in the UK, though still popular in the states. Many experienced animal behaviourists now believe that few domestic dogs today have any strong 'rank drive' or the urge to seek status/take over your home. Therefore rank reduction techniques such as the 'alpha roll' are rarely recommended.
The other problem with the alpha roll is, that if your dog is truely seeking a dominant role, if you are inexperienced an inadequately protected, you are likely to get badly bitten.
I strongly recommend that you do not use this techique.
The answer to your problem is to teach the dog to give any item you request on a specific command. This best carried out with a clicker and a dog who is very possessive will need a powerful reward such as little chunks of cooked meat or strong flavoured cheese during the training process.
There really is no place for those methods anymore, and you may end up with a large male labrador who is so scared/wary of someone grabbing him by the neck and putting him on the floor that he will growl and eventually bite when you try to get hold of his collar.
I am helping someone at the moment who has ended up in exactly this situation and it is going to take twice as long now to unteach that fear.
As Pippa suggested, use high value treats.
Also, train Basil to open his mouth for you by gently inserting your thumb or forefinger in the side of his mouth, and touching the roof of his mouth, this will make him open his mouth.
Just do it for a split second to start with and as soon as he opens his mouth, pop a tasty treat in, good boy and stop. Next time, try for a tiny bit longer and so on but don't try to hold his mouth open for ages, you don't want a fight, just a briefly opened mouth. This is also useful for visits to the vets, or if you think he may have something stuck in his throat, so it's a good trick for you both to become comfortable with.
Once he has learned this, if necessary you can help him to open his mouth and give something up, just try to always have a reward of some sort ready or you will always have a fight on your hands.
Another training 'game' to play at home is swapping. Before you start, put one of Basils most favourite toys in your pocket or nearby out of sight. Give Basil one of his medium favourite toys and play with him so he's excited about it. Then when he has the toy firmly in his mouth, say 'leave it' or whatever your command is and as soon as he drops it, pick it up and give him his favourite toy with lots of praise and a big game, putting the other toy away until next time.
My dogs know that if they 'leave' when asked, it is always because I have something better for them! No questions asked, no fighting, it gets dropped every time.
All this takes is time and patience and he will learn it. The problem with the negative reinforcement methods is that they are a bit 'quick fix' and give the impression that the dog has learnt something instantly because he is generally shocked or scared (even though he may not look obviously scared at the time). Long term though, he has no idea why he was forced to the floor, but he will remember that last time someone grabbed his collar/scruff was really scarey and he will try to prevent it happening again.
However, if you patiently and consistently reinforce a link between giving an object up and a really great reward, it will become a conditioned response to you saying 'leave it' which will last a lifetime, providing you are consistent!
I perhaps haven't explained it clearly but I have tried all that you have suggested and am really truly stuck with this problem. The roll I have only been shown once, I wouldnt be using it for dominance but to secure Basil in a position safely until he chooses to release the toy. It's for his safety really as he eats the toys - whole if he thinks you want them badly.There wouldnt be any grabbing of collars we don't do that. He didnt struggle or move harshly when it was demonstrated as he's already a very submissive dog.
The prizing of the jaw thing does not work every time. He is an aggressive chewer (of toys) and has a strong hold, plus the toys can be small and he can gag them back after a momentary release. When he has these toys he is a different dog, hence me suspecting he is fixated.
We do clicker training and Basil knows the leave and drop command well. He has successfully demonstarted this since 16 weeks of age (now 11 months). This problem with these toys has started about 6 weeks ago now. After lots of practice with these toys he will drop them about 80% of the time now, but its the other 20%. If he gets to eat, keep them then that is the reward - so worth fighting for in his eyes
Re the higher reward - there isnt one! This is my problem, These particular cheap squeeky toys are as high as it gets in Basils eyes. We have tried steak , cheese , liver cake, rawhides etc. I have even tried bribes rather than reward which i wouldnt normally do.
I am really looking to this as patiently waiting for him to respond for those emergency situations.
However, the reason I asked about this method was because I dont want to make more problems Any other ideas????
Wow Sarah that is a real tough one. I know you have mentioned it before. Obviously firstly, its a total idiot thing to say but is there a way of him not getting these small squeeky toys anywhere near him for the time being? i know you will have thought of this already, but avoid petshops where they might be laying about, if you take him to anyones house have a scan around before you let him off the lead.
There has to be a way round this, obviously there are only certain levels of training that can be used, one is to ensure that he has a hold and leave/drop command for if he does get one. One is that he understands when you want his mouth open he damn well opens it. The other is that he has respect for you in a general way. Another is that when he has such a prize he will respond to a sit and stay command immediately (so you at least can get hold of him to remove the toy).
It sounds very tiresome as eating these small items IS such a worry. Its incrediable that he has taken to this, its not a common thing. Some dogs hate giving up prized items BUT not to the point where they would rather swallow them than open their mouths... food yes of course, but not plastic toys... have you any idea where this started? How they became so prized to him? Was it a food flavour toy to begin with or is it the squeek that you think started this? Was it guarding it from another dog....?
To check back to other threads on this will have to send this now and start a new post for further comment.
I have to say, having read a lot on this now, and you have Pm'd me too, I don't think its a respect issue. I appreciate you did say about alpha rolling him (as the nametag goes for what you basically described, whether you did it for alpha reasons or not) but really you are just trying to get the sod to stay in one place long enough to get the toy away from him yes with you as the dominant presence and not with him jabbering and throwing his head about and shifting about whilst you are trying to get hold of the thing? i can understand your choice of method but it could possibly not be as useful as getting a really strong sit and stay command in there for you to use.
This all sounds so obvious and you are a intelligent owner and will have tried a normal sit and stay of course, BUT it patently isn't good enough in these unusual circusmatances to hold him in position?
Any answers to anything above would be helpful but I will Pm you too later today.
Di
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The boys!
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scuff/scuffing is what the kids do to there shoes 
But then they gave it back to him 
and possessiveness started.
Sarah I must agree with Pippa.
