Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Visiting breeders
We're going to look at some 3 1/2 week old puppies on saturday. The parents aren't yet hip scored as they mated sooner than expected but all 4 grandparents are hip scored & members of KC. Both parents are there so we can see them both. Is this enough to go on when selecting a breeder & puppy? Thanks, Hannah
I would steer clear personally, knowing what I know now (since joining LF), to me dogs "mating sooner than expected" is no excuse for not having them hip scored, presumably they havn`t been eye tested or elbow checked either?.
Others will be along with their views but most of us have seen what can happen with pups from unchecked parents, I would look for a more reputable breeder, you`ll get loads of advice here on what to check for in both breeder and puppy
Yes, if they knew their stuff, and were serious breeders, this probably wouldn't have happened. Be careful, if you see them on Saturday, you'll probably fall in love, but as time goes on, you may have to pick up the pieces.
Lucky you have found this site before you got your pup, you will find some great advice on buying a pup. You sometimes have to go on a waiting list for the best pups, i.e for showing
I completely agree with what the members above have said...you need to ask yourself, when you see those lovely cutely little faces, whether it is worth taking a risk on a pup from those parents...
Hannah, I too would agree with everything posted so far. There is a good page on here titled 'Breeder Guide' have a read of that for what you should be looking for.
It is so easy to be tempted by those sweet furry faces but ....A puppy from a reputable breeder should not cost you more and will come with all the possible assurances. Nothing is 100%.
What you need to bear in mind is that a poorly puppy can costs you hundreds of pounds in vets bill and that isn't even taking in to consideration that the puppy will suffer.
You MAY be lucky but there are no guarantees. As others have said before me, if we all steer clear of breeders like these, they will hopefully become more responsible. Dogs don´t JUST get pregnant, if you think your birch has been accidentally mated, your vet can inhibit the pregnancy ..there is a doggy ' morning after' pill.
Look on the Kennel Club page, or contact the secretary of the local breed society, they have lists of breeders with litters for sale. This is an investment for many years. You wouldn´t buy a car without the correct documents or a house without the deeds being correct, so don´t buy a pup that has only been bred for profit and not love of the breed.
I know this is not waht you want to hear but it is a case of head over heart!
I wrote this the other day for my new website so thought alongside all the other similar stuff on here I'd post it to help anyone considering buying a puppy, to maybe clear up some misunderstood areas - i can also refer people to it later on should anyone ask about any of the these things - so prempting the future Its not aimed at those listers who know their stuff, but people new to the breed:
Q: 'I've heard and seen puppy adverts mentioning health certificates and wondered what this meant and why it is necessary?'
This is a very misunderstood area. Alongside temperament, the health of your Labrador throughout its life is of primary importance to you as pet owners. Three of the most frequent problems that affect the Labrador are Hip Displacia, Elbow Displacia and GPRA (a problem with the eyes that causes blindness, often by three or four years of age).
The eye problem is ENTIRELY genetic (so passed through the genes from the puppies parents to it and its littermates).
The Hip and Elbow problems have a very strong genetic influence, but can be aggrevated by overexercising a young puppy, falls, injuries and general roughhousing whilst the dogs joints are still growing.
Therefore, it is very very important that only dogs free from these problems themselves are bred from to give the puppies produced the very best chance of being free themselves of these painful and traumatic problems.
The common misconception is that only competition kennels use the health schemes or that they are not for breeders who 'only produce pets'. The schemes are not expensive to put breeding dogs through, and, remember, every dog bred from is a 'breeding dog', NOT just those belonging to people who show or work their dogs. To NOT health test the parents before breeding for these conditions is selling both puppy buyers and the puppies they produce short as they are playing Russian Roulette by breeding 'blind'.
To briefly explain the schemes:
Hip Scoring.
At around a year of age, when the dogs skeleton has fully grown, an xray is taken of the dogs pelvis area. This xray is then sent from the vet to the BVA (British Vet Association). They will score this xray with each hip of the two hips scoring between 0 (lowest) and 53 (highest). So if both hips are scored the total that dog achieves will be between a TOTAL of 0 and 106 (2 x 53).
Currently the breed average for a total of both hips sits at around 16. So dogs around or under this score have average or better than average hips to give a guide.
the score can also be shown sometimes as two numbers, left hip/right hip - so, something like 5/4 (total of 9 - good) or maybe 33/21 (total of 54 - poor).
Elbow Scoring
A newer scheme and currently less dogs are elbow scored than hip scored. It is gaining in use and many breeders are realising the importance of checking elbows too on their breeding dogs as many 'front end' lameness problems are showing around 6 - 9 months of age and have been for many years.
Usually at the same time as the hip xrays, a set of xrays of each of the dogs elbows are taken under general anesthetic. These xrays are sent, again, to the BVA and scored, by the nature of the joint being different to a hip joint, in a slightly different way.
Elbows are EACH scored only from 0 - 3 (0 being excellent, 3 being very badly affected with problems). The small range of scores avaliable mean that really, only dogs with a 0 score on each elbow should be bred from.
Scores are usually spoken of only as a single number - so 0, 1, 2 or 3 basically. If the score is uneven, so say, 0 (left) 1 (right) the HIGHER result is used as the dogs single score - so 1 (to indicate that he does have *some* element of problem there.)
To recap, it is the PARENTS of the litter who are scored and not the puppies. This cannot be undertaken until a year of age as a minimum but can be done at any age after this. Only dogs to be bred from are usually hip and elbow scored, there is no need to score pet puppies who are not to be bred from. The information is FOR breeder and puppy buyers to decide if the dog is suitable to be bred from. Hip and elbow scoring are done once in a dogs life only and his scores remain with him for the rest of his life. When buying a puppy, you should insist on seeing the official BVA/KC certificates with the dogs scores on. NEVER just rely on verbal assurances that the parents are scored without seeing the proof. Hip scoring has been undertaken now for around 35 years and Elbow scoring for 12 - 15 years and so the schemes are well known and well used. A breeder shows everything you need to know about them, if they do not use the health schemes, even if they seem a nice person with basically healthy looking dogs.
Eye Test Certificate.
This is possibly even more essential for buyers of puppies to ensure they buy only from litters where both parents have been eye tested. GPRA is 100% genetic and so the status of the parents eyes entirely affects the puppies eyes for the future. This test is not undertaken at a regular vet but by a specialist. There are many many clinics and testing sessions around the country OR you can book a private visit to one of the dozens of test specialists. An eye test will be undertaken and a simple certificate given afterwards showing if the dog was affected or unaffected by the problems being examined for. This eye certificate should be renewed every 12 months and so, when puppies are produced, the certificate should be valid. they last only 12 months, like a Car M.O.T. so even if the breeder can show a certificate, firstly make sure the 'unaffected' box is ticked (not the 'affected') and secondly make sure it is dated within the last 12 months. If it is not, chances are the dog was retested and failed OR the owner didn't bother testing again. The trauma of a young pet dog going blind is so great that the £35 or so an eye test certificate costs a breeder is a SMALL price to pay to check their eyes are not affected before a mating is undertaken.
Q: I have seen all sorts of types of Labradors out there - some big heavy ones with large heads, some smaller, finer ones. Are they ALL pedigree Labradors and is there any difference between their temperaments?
The Labrador is the most numerous dog in the UK. Its not suprising therefore that they do come in all shapes and sizes. However as a general guide:
Show line and Field/Working line Labradors
These are not necessarily dogs who are shown or worked themselves, BUT have a pedigree full of dogs who come from either show or working lines. The show line labrador tends to be a little shorter in leg, but broader in body and head than the field/working type dogs. Commonly on a showline pedigree you will see dogs with SH CH (Show Champion) before their pedigree name. On a working or field trial pedigree you will see several with FTW (Field Trial Winner) or FT CH (Field Trial Champion).
80 years ago or more 'the Labrador' was all one dog. One type. A moderate middleweight hunter dog brought over from the fishing waters of Newfoundland to be shooting companions for the UK gentry. The popularity of the amiable, biddable breed rose quickly and with the advent of more dogs being kept as domestic pets, started to slowly split into several types, with the working dogs actually being bred with a lighter and lighter frame to enable maximum speed, style and endurance, and the show and pet dog often being bred heavier, with more thought given to looks and 'show ring presence' than the origins of the breed as a medium sized dog with no exaggerations.
No one line or type is more prone to health problems than another. The logic that a lighter frame of Labrador must be healthier does not stand up in practice, especially as many of the working line breeders have been slow to start to use the health schemes (above) and so have not been making informed decisions healthwise when mating dogs for as long as many of the show lines have been. Matings between pet dogs are numerous, and of course usually are undertaken for no other reason that the Sire and Dam of the litter lived nearby, or possibly both with the breeder, so therefore may be a mix of any lines, show, working or anything inbetween!
Temperament is both inherited from its parents and developed by the way the dog is socialised and raised. It is important to see at least the mother of the litter to check her temperament is friendly, confident and you would be pleased to end up with a dog similar to her in looks and personality. If you would not, walk away. Puppies from show lines, pet lines and working lines can all be bold and outgoing, can all be timid and nervous and can all be smart and quick to learn or a little less clever! Generally the nature of field trial and working lines means that they have been bred for many generations to work hard all day and have the capacity to learn. These may, therefore, be a more active dog on the whole than your average show line bred dog, but many show bred lines are very intelligent and active without being overly demanding in their desire to be on the go quite so much.
In the end its the type that pleases your eye that you must 'go for'.
This picture shows a both show line and working line dogs next to one another and gives a clear indication of the differences in structure and size.
Q: I 'only' want a pet puppy. Surely the sort of breeder who uses health schemes and competes with their dogs won't be interested in selling to me?
Breeders who show or work their dogs still always expect the vast majority of their puppies to go into pet homes. Just because they are experienced, regular competitors, doesn't mean they won't sell to pet homes. There is no NEED to buy from novice breeders, mating pet dogs for no good reason because you 'only want a pet'. Prices will be almost exactly the same too for pet puppies from whatever source. So make sure your source is a quality one!
The below clubs mostly run puppy registers with ethical and responsible club member breeders listing current litters avaliable:
Breed Clubs and Societies
COTSWOLD & WYEVERN LABRADOR CLUB. Sec. Mr K Gawthorpe - 01932 874539
EAST ANGLIAN LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mrs J Cole. Tel No: 01354 680375
KENT, SURREY & SUSSEX LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mrs K Walsh. Tel No: 01483 797653
LABRADOR CLUB OF SCOTLAND. Sec. Miss Farquarson. Tel No: 01382 459099
LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mr A Ellis. Tel No: 01766 522146
LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB OF NORTHERN IRELAND. Sec. Mrs Hughes. Tel No: 028926 38603
LABRADOR RETRIEVER OF WALES. Sec. Mrs M Barker. Tel No: 01443 842585
MIDLAND COUNTIES LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mrs J Lewis. Tel No: 01484 680123
NORTH WEST LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mrs Maureen D’Arcy. Tel No: Not available, please contact the Kennel Club.
NORTHUMBERLAND & DURHAM LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mr P A Smith. Tel No: 01642 292965
THREE RIDINGS LABRADOR CLUB. Sec. Mrs P Gill. Tel No: 01943 467926
WEST OF ENGLAND LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB. Sec. Mr G Cox. Tel No: 01566 785121
YELLOW LABRADOR CLUB. Sec. Mrs Wiles. Tel No: 01895 823227
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Where abouts are you in the country - give us a county even adn to temper the dissapointment of avoiding a litter such as the 'whoops' litter you mention we can be positive and give you some leads.
Can I lastly say, that for the dogs not to have been hip scored before the mating reads that the breeders WERE going to hip score them, and as dogs are hipscored at around 12 - 14 months of age, this bitch is far too young by the sounds of things to have been mated - two is really a minimum first litter age...
SO, if they ARE older than that, I don't think really we can believe the breeder when she said that she was going to hip score at all unfortunately.
Best and hope to hear from you
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Thanks for all your advice - really helpful. To give you some more information, the Mum is 3 & the dad 1. They're both family pets and all 4 Grandparents were hip scored. We're not sure if they intended to breed them later or not at all, but it's definitely something we'll ask. We're in North Yorkshire.
Does anyone know of any reputable breeders in the area who've just had pups or just about to?
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