This is a great post and I think we'd all agree (and a dog person may disagree with us) but dogs might be categorised into breeds etc but at the end of the day they are individuals. They have their own personalities.
George and Charlie are from the same litter. Same nature, same nurture and they couldnt be more different!
I think I have myself a P - each week at school there is a rescue dog, who doesnt like other dogs, if they get too close she will bare her teeth and have a bark at them.
Everyweek when we let them off the lead for a play, Jansen makes a beeline for her !
I wonder when will he realise, that not eveydog we meet will love him & want to play !
I've got a bit of both I think, likes to say hello to most people and dogs but goes all submissive when she realizes it's not a lab or it is bigger than her and tears back to me and tries to get between my legs. When walking in the woods she goes a little in front then straight back to my side if she hears another dog or noise.
" At what age can you have some idea about what a puppy's temperment will be like (roughly speaking). "
Its a fairly strongly held belief that the pup you have at 8 weeks of age is a weaned, small version both physcially and charcteristically version of its adult self. Of course there a zillion things that happen to a dog between 8 weeks and adulthood that shape it and influence it, but I like to pick my puppies (and everyone elses) at between 7 and 8 weeks.
They go on to change but for me, having had pups come at 6 weeks, and pups at adozen other ages after this, I feel you can really see them best at 8 weeks.
However now I talk more (sorry...). Picking a puppy from a litter, for me, is almost always approached in the wrong way. i understand that this is the puppy BUYERS puppy, and they have every right to pick their own pup (and I am talking when buying from someone who cares about their litter and is reasonably knowledgeable). There is noone like the breeder to know the pups.
Many many breeders take bookingss for their puppies, then allow people to pick in the order they laid desposits. The family base their pick on colour, sex and so on obviously. BUT they also base it on one, maybe two vistss to that pup in the weeks when he is becoming a little 'person' so to speak.
I have proved many times that, in a litter of one colour, if you let someone pick out their puppy at 5/6/7 weeks based on playing with the pups for half hour or so, the VAST majority pick another puppy out of the litter if they come back even a week later, sometimes even less.
Understandably so, because they change so much physically and personalitywise in just a few days at that age. Think of it this way, when you visit, some pups could be tired, some could be hungry, two important things which change the way they seem. One day one pup seems a slug, the next its a raging dervish!
SO really the best way of getting the right puppy for your family is to have a breeder who will be watching her litter every day from the moment they are born and will look at your situation and tell you which pup she thinks suits YOU, and absoluitely NOT based on one or two visist and maybe just because one has a cuter head or is a bit bigger in size or whatever.
Its hard though because I am sure many forum members bought from breeders who didn't know much more about dogs than they do....
Its also hard if you book a chocolate dog and a black bitch is the one presented to you as being ideal tempermentally, so obviously there are limitations, but in general, ask the breeder about the pups day to day and if they are vague, know you could be taking a bit of a chance.
Anyway that aside, at 8 weeks, the 'in your face' pup usually stays resonably that way IF (and this was the point of the above chat) he is 'in your face' day to day as reported by his breeder and NOT just on the one or two trips you make when he could just be more awake than the others, they tire so easily at that stage. Ditto if you prefer a quiet pup, just because one sits on your lap and goes to sleep whilst the others playfight, chances are 15 minutes ago it was play fighting like mad and just needs a sleep
Tricky eh?
Di
____________ Di
´Sometimes the hardest thing, and the right thing, are the same...'
Becs, to continue because I keep having thoughts on this - I am going to say that in an 'ideal world' that we don't live in, for me, if a puppy is well socialised, well fed, given a fairly straightforward life without too many major adjustments such as being left constantly and so on regularly, by about 5 months of age you can tell the bones and vast majority about that pup and how it will go on to adulthood and what it will and won't shape out like.
Of course that doesn't mean I would advise people BUY at 5 months old ideally. Yes if that breeder has kept the pup as part of the family and trained it and crated it and socialised it and so on, but not if it is just a 'late seller' and has done nothing between birth and the selling date.
Myself I would advise for the best start in life between 7 and 10 weeks is the range I would advise you buy. They need to be settled to show their true temperament and if the breeder hasn't done much in the way of socialisation with the pups, even at 10 weeks it may well not be that influential as long as you get on it quickly...
Sorry for the waffle...
Di
____________ Di
´Sometimes the hardest thing, and the right thing, are the same...'
" OOHHHH I have a question too please Miss If you have a W is dog 2 better being a W too or a P - now I am getting a dalmatian so not a lab but just in general. Part of me things two little wimps (awww) together may encourage each other and therefore make the nervousness worse BUT on the other hand if I got a rampaging P would Rubys life thereafter be a nightmare?"
As I have said, this is only opinion but I like to think it is informed opinion even if you disagree with it So I would say that in my opinion the perfect match is a P with a W.
BUT, at this point I have to say that *I* have used the letters P and W simply for my own purposes because they represent the two lines running through my kennel 'Wylanbriar' and 'Pawcrest'. There is no training or 'puppy assessment' book that will use these, I just wanted to say that in response to a PM I have recieved, and felt that should publically be said too.
I also must stress I am just saying that the listed characteristics match my 'w's and the listed charcteristics match my 'p's but they could be different charcteristics in your dog - he and his family group could be 'G's!. Its all about knowing your own dog and considering what is just about forgiveable if not desireable, and what is a behavioural problem that with a bit of work can be overcome.
SO to the question. IF your dog is, like mine, what i calss as a 'w' so sensitive by nature and often reacts to unsettling experiences poorly to a certain extent, is a little wimpy, maybe a touch nervous in some situations, a bold dog is not a bad match for it. Certainly all my 'w' bitches through those 5 generations have been bred every time to bold confident dogs for a reason. I know you are not talking about breeding your dog, but any injection of extra boldness is a plus point in its environment, countering the areas it lacks. It cannot BE a minus.
As we are talking about inbred nature... I cannot say that P will change your W significantly, no P ever has here because my whole point is they can't be changed at the bottom of their soul, but because of the P being a P themselves genetically, living with a W won't tend to make them wimpy. The whole story being that a W cannot ever BE a P and a P cannot even if you trained it to death become a W.
Does that make sense. A W is useful too for a P because it will just slightly encourage a little more clingyness, two Ps and you tend to have them bowling up as a pair to all and sundry, but that W *can* just make the P think 'hang on, shes not going, maybe I can't be arsed to either...
You know, do ask if I'm not being clear in anyway...
Di
____________ Di
´Sometimes the hardest thing, and the right thing, are the same...'
Oh, grin, and out of interest, the most interesting mating I have evr undertaken is my own W bitch to my own P dog. I now have those pups at 7 months of age and its FACINATING that the bitch I kept really is a mixture of P and W when under pressure. However boldness wise she is toned down from the P's and 'jumpy' or 'clingy' wise she is toned UP from the w's
As you would imagine I suppose....
Di
____________ Di
´Sometimes the hardest thing, and the right thing, are the same...'
I can whole heartedly agree with you about listening to how the breeder describes your chosen pup. Mojo came from a smallish litter of 5...I wanted a black girl and the only other black girl had gone, so I had the choice of her or walk away. I talked for a long time to the breeder, over the phone and in-person, when I visited the pups and their mum at 4 weeks old.
She was an extremely caring breeder, who had obviously taken a lot of advise about breeding and selling the pups and I must have answered more questions than I had to ask myself (and I had a lot ). She wanted to know what I was going to do with her, had I had any experience of the breed, which other dogs I had, and a hundred more questions. Anyway I passed and I came away leaving a deposit on Mojo.
However, just before I was due to collect her, I had a phone call to update me on Vaccs, times to collect, etc and she mentioned that Mojo was the clever one of the pack...she was the spokesperson...always the one to scream for her breakfast...the first one to manage to climb out of the whelping box...she was very alert and always on the go...and she didn't really like cuddles, well not like the others did. Then she went on to ask, did I really want her? She was more than happy to give me back my deposit, if I didn't think I could cope with a very lively, but slightly insecure dog. She obviously knew Mojo very well.
Mojo was only 7 weeks old at the time of that conversation.....and in the early days, it crossed my mind more than once that I should have heeded her *warning*.
The only reason I didn't change my mind, was the fact that I had had a really wired collie bitch for 10 years previously (Lottie was a very steep learning curve), so I felt I knew enough to be able to cope with all that Mojo threw at me...and to be truthful I did, barring the odd hiccup .
It's funny now thinking back....I had gone all out to find a playful, placid, bull-in-a-china-shop Lab.....and I came home with something completely different. But now if and when I want another Lab....I would want one just like her...just minus the elbow problems.
It's just odd how we end up really loving what we've got....and understanding what we've been given....if we give it time.
" Elsa is definitely a W type. But would this theory apply to dogs that bark at people who walk near the house. Could that be a genetic trait. I ask as I have had 2 labs that did and 2 that never did. As far as I can remember they have all been treated the same since arriving here. This behavior is not something I've encouraged or discouraged so could it be in the breeding? "
.... well probably not barking at people going by specifically, but certainly that trace of W is there in doing so if it is something you have never encouraged and feel CERTAIN of this.
Its just that little slightly defensive streak popping through. That 'don't come any nearer' streak.
Although again I do stress that different labradors and their lines may carry different tweeks to their nature.
Sometimes I think if its something you have not trained in, like Rooney holding peoples hands in his mouth when excited, or a dog grabbing up a toy when OTT, or many other things we don't teach in, AND then if we actually undergo a real consistant programnme to try and socialise, unschoo the behaviour and so on and it changes sometimes, but not when the dog is under REAL pressure, or is startled, basic reaction moments basically, then it is an inbred inherited trait that you can work on forever and never QUITE get rid of.
Di
____________ Di
´Sometimes the hardest thing, and the right thing, are the same...'
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She was more than happy to give me back my deposit, if I didn't think I could cope with a very lively, but slightly insecure dog. She obviously knew Mojo very well.
