Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: What are your views on the Dog Listener method?
Have read a couple of books by Jan Fennell and was really impressed with what she advocates.
Just wondering if anyone has implemented it fully with their new puppy. The bit I cannot get my head around is the "ignoring for 5 mins rule". I am not quite sure how to reconcile this with effective toilet training.
If I have been separated from Megan for any length of time, and I were to come back into her space and then ignore her, she would wander off and have a pee from all the excitement, and I would not notice as I would be ignoring her!! Especially coming down in the morning - are you supposed to leave her in her crate while ignoring her, let her out and ignore her, or let her out into the garden and ignore her. If she pees how can I praise her while still ignoring her???!!!
I am confused. Can you tell?
Aimi
x
Haven't read the books you mention but it sounds very sensible. I always make a point of not acknowledging the dogs for a while after I get in, and certainly well after my partner and the kids. Think I saw something about this on a Dog Borstal and it seemed to make a lot of sense. I suppose if you've been out for a while and they need to eliminate you can still follow the sense of it, but just by being very low key (they don't need fulsome praise for every successful pee). Arrive, take the pup out , pop her back in her crate, potter and then when she's calm greet her more enthusiastically.
I read these books some years ago...at the time thought they made sense......but now consider them out of date in training aspects.....
The ethos I understand but in practice are not totally necesary.....
I think it's great to read these books but you have to use your own judgement with knowledge of your preferences, your dog and your home situation to pick, adapt and reject the bits you want.
Personally i think some of the fun of having a dog is being greeted when you come home (although not by a crazy dog going loopy!)
We don't ignore Basil for 5 minutes but when we arrive home/ get up we do ignore while we do other things first, ie take of coats, open curtains, use bathroom , put shopping away. Then we speak to him and open the crate. I usually make eye contact though so i'm not compeltely ignoring him. Sometimes i speak to him and sometimes not.
We always ignore jumping up when we get him out of his crate and when he was younger we'd give him a toy straight away for his mouth to stop playbiting, which he now chooses to do himself even though biting has long stopped. By the time we greet him he's excited but just wiggly bum rather than crazy.
I think the essence is the dog needs to understand it is not the most important thing when you enter the room. If you always greet it first then the day you come in carrying flatpack furniture or something or with a guest could be hectic.
Re the toilet bit, I think at such a young age if you even make dog wait while tou greet other family and open the curtains, so maybe only a minute or so, pup will get the idea and chances are will not have an accident that quickly. The maon thong is not going straight to the crate.
sorry for the huge post, think i got carried away rambling on
HI,
I would be very cautious about applying Jan Fennell's methods - especailly whith a little puppy. Personally I think she talks 99% nonsense. Her approach is based on out-dated studies on captive wolves and it has been argued by many zoologist who really know their stuff that whilst dogs share many characteristics of juvenile wolves, there is one heck of a lot of adult wolf behaviour that doesn't relate to the domestic dog.
When I first read her first book quite a few years ago I thought that I'd give it a try. She seemed to be saying that if you followed her 'rules' your dog would never pull on the lead/chase cats/ not come back when recalled ever again! Total twaddle!!! I ended up with 2 dogs that were rapidly becoming very depressed and I didn't dare look at my dog without thinking if I should be doing so and what message I was giving them. I also went to a lecture by her and when she's actually questioned and put on the spot for advice about specific behaviour problems, she really didn't have a clue as far as I'm concerned.
Some of the stuff that she does 'appears' to work (IMO) because dogs respond well to boundries, rules and consistancy. Her reasoning behind her rules is misguided (again IMO!!!)
Sorry but as you can tell, I'm not Jan Fennells greatest fan!!!!!
Becs and the Gang
Becs, i know what you mean, i have read 2 of her books and watched her tv programmes, that always baffled me, in the way if you do the things indoors how does that make a dog stop pulling.
Know early summer i thought i had a problem with bailey and other dogs, which it turns out i don't. I was advised by a trainer to ignore him for 15-20 mins which i did do i'm afraid to say, everytime i can back home. Bailey doesn't jump up me, yes he comes up to say hallo tail wagging.
So after some advice from Di, that went out the window. I was so much happier and i'm sure Bailey was to.
I understand you ignore bad behaviour, but i was ignoring him for what being good and not jumping up!
Aimi, i think it would be very hard to put Jan fennels methods into practise with a puppy
I haven't read the book but I have seen most of her TV series.
It's a very nice idea she has....but in reality.....most of it is a load of tripe.
I have worked with horses and used the join-up tecniques Monty Roberts (the original Horse Whisperer) perfected, with some success. But horses and dogs are very different beings. Wild horses and domestic horses are a lot closer (infact in a lot of cases they are one and the same), than wolves and domestic dogs (which have been developed by humans over thousands of years).
The only reason I watch it, is that Oyster loves to watch programmes with naughty dogs in it.....Now how many wolves can do that?
I have read only her '7 ages of your dog' which was not really training based but developmental.
I find it almost offensive that she considers that one should ignore your dog for 5 minutes when you come in? WHY? To assert you are the boss and above that dog in status? For lords sake you have just picked to leave the pack alone (very unusual decision in a dogs mind - a pack should stay together), and then come back safely and he is amazed and thrilled at your return. How heartbreaking to ignore him!
My goodness. Its not the first time I've heard this and not the first time I have been extremely disconcerted by the tinkering that we humans try and enforce to pretend we understand the workings of a dog pack.
Has anyone ever read about wild wolf packs? When the male returns from hunting the pups and female are over the MOON and bowl all over him joyfully, whimpering and licking his mouth in pleasure AND to ask him to throw up food. I am yet to read evidence that the male ignores his wife and kids for 5 minutes to enforce his status.
Oh, and importantly - edited to say - in a wild pack, members with little or no status are not or sparcely acknowledged when they return to the fold... the highest ranking members in the dogs mind are greeting the most ethusiastically... so if you are IGNORED when you walk in be worried about your ranking, NOT if you are joyfully greeted!
Di
Last edited by Diana on Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
I think these sort of things are all about STAMPING our authority on our dogs using human ideals and not bonding gently and happily with them pointing out the error of their ways firmly from time to time when the need arises.
Its all the same as the other *popularly discussed* methods like -: no feeding before humans eat (adult dogs ALWAYS feed their pups before eating themselves), never stepping over dogs laying in doorways but getting them to move (wild dog parents will hang on the edge of the pack in the draft rather than shift a sleeping pup), no getting on the furniture as it raising the dog in height and there, somehow this is concluded, status.... its not about if a dog gets on the furniture, its about how easily it gets off....
Anyway enough from me, i should be PM'ing Sharon! Sorry Sharon!
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
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Aimi and Megan
