I think its very interesting what people have said, especially those who feel that they need to get 'tougher' but either feel uncomfortable with it or don't know how to go about it without using a physical approach. I think a lot of parents can relate to that too!!!!
Thinking about it, I have become stricter with each pup I've had but strangely, I also tell the recent pups off a lot less than I used to with my earlier pups. The later pups have been better behaved too on the whole!!!
Echo and Ugo, for example, have a far better recall than Zorro and Flo (Ted doesn't need to recall cos he's always next to my ankles by his choice!) and yet I have slaved over recalls with Zorro and Flo, and didn't with Ugo and Echo. I can really relate to John's story of the pup chewing his tool case......
Here's one of my own example stories(!)
Ugo has been allowed off lead when we are walking (in safe places obviously) since he was a pup and he always came running when we called him because thats what little pups do! One day in the woods when he was about 7 months old I called him, he looked at me and then continued in the opposite direction. I crept up behind him, scruffed him and growled in my angry voice "what do you think you are doing?" He was well taken aback that I had rained on his parade in such a way. I then made him sit and wait, walked a few paces away and called him. He came flying towards me, got a lot of praise and some treats and then I told him to 'go free'. After that one incident, I am really happy with his recall. I can call him to me as he is heading towards other dogs, get him to walk close to me if joggers run past, and call him to me if I change direction or if he gets to far ahead. It is an absloute pain if your dog doesn't come when it is called, not only for the owner but for the dog as they lose out on the freedom that can be afforded to dogs with a good recall.
Personally I would rather have one short, sharp correction for my dog than having to go through long-lining it, practising endless recalls, clipping leads on when you see a dog on the horizon etc. I think that mentally it is easier on the dog too than being constantly nagged and niggled. Nor do I think that good relationships between dogs and owners suffer if an action is taken to make a dog obey a command.
Having said that, all dogs are different. But if you have had a dog from a pup and it trusts and respects you then you can afford to lay down the law at times.
I find my dogs really easy to live with, a joy to take out and I adore them. But I like them to behave as well! I don't get any pleasure from correcting them, but nowadays I'm not uncomfortable doing so if I feel they need it.
I think when it comes to correction for kids and probably dogs too you have to look at the whole picture, not just the correction itself. For example: If for most of the time your relationship with your dog is a happy one (talking calmly, playing and lots of postive actions) then the one time that you do need to correct will have a much larger impact on the dog because it is something hes not used to nor is he expecting.
Shep was well trained when we got him. However, I felt that he was trained to 'stay out of the way', he didn't 'hide' but you wouldn't know that he was there. I thought he needed bringing out of his shell a little bit and now I feel he's is a more integral part of the family. I actually think hes happier too! His previous owner has commented that he's like a different dog.
Amber also needed bringing out of her shell too! I was all determined to make clear bounderies and be firm about it when she arrived and I was for the most part. She got away with sleeping on the bed LOL
I admit that my levels of acceptable behaviour are very relaxed and they're allowed on the sofas and the beds. They get praise for even the little things and a firm 'no' for wrong things, because they are sensitive I don't need anything other than that. I rarely have to tell Amber off and Shep never gets told off! simply because they don't do anything to warrent it.
____________ Kimberley,Sheppy and Amber
Amber/Shep
Very interesting indeed... Thank you all and Vicky for the suggestion. I have to add that we have been very successful with disciplining Kyra by using positive reward and we are lucky she is very gentle natured and a pleasure to have, she waits for her food until we say it is ok, she never begs for our food, she interested yes but she doesn' t bother us for it, she stops and sits at the kerb and is very good on lead. We are relaxed at home as I like her to be part of our family and not considered just a dog, I wouldn't want for her to stop doing something because she has been scared by it. I know she is bomb proof and I like to keep her that way, I don't want to ruin her confidence by using something that can really scare her, god knows what that would be... he he he
Said all that I think I might get a 1 to 1 training and work on her jumping, this is her only problem that can also be a very serious one as if she jumps to someone one day and really upsets that person, it could be real trouble.
Gosh I am writing another poem! Sorry...
Viky I will try with your suggested method, just not sure she will even blink at that hehe...
I would start to write on this and never stop, so will just say that back in the days of physical correction being administered as a training tool, dogs tended not to be expected to be quite such a part of family life. There were fewer Tv shows, books avaliable in Tescos or some such easy to obtain source, internet forums, training clubs and so on. People tended not to know any other way and they certainly didn't look behind the action to think through the cause of the behaviour.
Many more dogs were latchkey dogs, left to their own devices, only partially housetrained from wandering a lot of the day either round the streets or in their owners garden. No crates. No psychology. No behaviorists. Andhaving a spot on relationship with your dog was not the be all and end all. Dogs were often less companions than bark machines as guards. Life was harderon kids, technically, although they knew the guidelines clearly, and ditto exactly for dogs - the crux being the dog probably didn't understand the guidelines, it just knew you didn't step on the flowers because you got a boot up your arse. You didn't pull on the leadbecause you got a kick in the chest or a yank on a choke chain andso on.
The behaviour wasn't neededto be so good as now. If the dog bit the kid, the kid was told to stop teasing the dog or he didn't even tell his parents because he'd been TOLD not to touch the dog and knew he would get a whack for touching him to add to his bite.... and so on.
A lot of things I see on here used, withdrawal of treats. Time Outs. Sent 'on your beds'.... are training tools used for children these days which were little used before. Now they appear to be being used for dogs too.
Whether this 'analitical' approach is helping folks own dogs more effectively remains to be seen. I would say it does marginally certainly. The problem I find is that half an idea is often grasped by owners because they've heard 'a bit' about pack order, or 'a bit' about dominance' or 'fear aggression' and they try and be their own behaviourist. Too many sources can often blow peoples minds - especially first time owners. Until they try 'a bit of this' and a 'bit of that' until the dog is utterly baffled and has no clear boundaries at all...
...where as, at least one *could* say that in the past, a kick up the backside would 'fix all' and the dog wasn't 'fiddled with inexpertly' as some are these days.
In a world where nowdays we don't just 'do' we ask 'why, how and for how long' before we do it, its not suprising we have taken this into our dog training too. Its probably made us kinder owners. The dogs are probably happierfor it in some cases. But utter confusion of boundaries to a dog can be as hard on him as a boot in the bum sometimes. Dog Packs could be harsh places to be part of, but you never didn't know what you could and couldn't get away with.....
Hmmmmm christ it was a long post anyway! Goodness knows if I really got stuck in
D
I very seldom have to correct them, but when I do I like it to be very clear that I won't tolerate what ever it is that they are doing that I find unacceptable - I can't bare nagging!!!!
Yes, i totally agree. I can't stand seeing someone constantly saying "no no no no" to their dog and their dog is just completely ignoring them and continue doing whatever its doing.
When i correct my dog, i also like to make it very clear that i will not tolerate that particular behaviour.
Like Carroll, i use a half check lead, and when necissary, give it a 'pop' when needed. However, this is very rare to be honest. But when i do, instantly Leo knows that the behaviour is unacceptable!
There has been times when i have scruffed him also and boy does he sure understand what for!
Im likely to get myself in trouble for my reply so i will get my hard hat out......
Corrections have to depend on many different variables, if you miss time a pop on the collar you could give your dog a life time fear, if you shout at a nervous dog you could damage your relationship with it ect ect. Your average dog owner doesnt take them into consideration and on occasion may punish a dog out of anger or frustration, its sad but true. You only have to watch dog borstal to proove that.
No i personally dont just agree with positive reinforcement and have used aversives with my fear aggressive dog, however i use them sparingly and carefully (extremely).
However i would never ever agree with using physical punishment on a dog, it doesnt teach the dog anything other than to fear the trainer.
____________ Mazzie
Mommy to Bramble, Ash, Poppy and Baby Hebe
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