Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: 'Punishment'
After watching all the different 'dog training' programes that there are now on the TV, I've been thinking a lot about how dog- training has evolved since Barbara Woodhouse's day, and wether we are now going full-circle. On one hand we have the 'Dog Listener' - Jan fennell (who realy gets up my nose btw!!!) and Victoria whats her name, and then at the other end of the scale we have the likes of Dog Borstal.
I've noticed that the word 'punishment' is never uttered...being very politically incorect nowadays, and yet there seems to be a certain amount of punishment in everyone's methods although it is prettied up as 'negative- reinforcement' or suchlike.
Time -out, noise aversion, removal of treats and rewards for non-complience, are all types of punishment in my book, and yet some are more 'acceptable' than others.
It feels like no-one likes to admit to 'punishing' their dogs, (nor their children!) nowadays as to admit it almost feels like admitting defeat. I don't advocate hitting a dog.....to me that is something a dog doesn't understand and can damage the dogs outlook on humans..... but is 'punishment' acceptable nowadays or is there not a need for it?
Are we rearing a generation of ASBO dogs because we are too 'nice' about correcting them? What do dogs understand by way of punishment? Do dogs like to know the boundries in a no-nonsence way and are they nicer to live with if they have firm guidelines about what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't?
This is just me thinking out-loud but I would be really interested in people's thoughts...
I love my dogs to pieces, and I love living with them and they seem happy and well-adjusted. I very seldom have to correct them, but when I do I like it to be very clear that I won't tolerate what ever it is that they are doing that I find unacceptable - I can't bare nagging!!!! There are somthings that they do, ie barking at the dogs next door, that I really wanted to stop. I tried all the nicey-nicey approaches over a long period of time to no effect so tried the pebbles in a bottle a few days ago. And its stopped - one shake and one word from me and its finished and they happily sniff each other through the fence rather than yelling at each other. And yet I feel a 'failure' for having 'punished' my dogs in order to achieve what I wanted to achieve.
Are we all turning into 'softy-Walters'?????
now i know where i have been going wrong...blowing into cassies nose is not the right move then huh...darn the charity shop and its barbara woodhouse book <wanders off for a new read
This is a subject close to my heart Becs........As far as I'm concerned we can all see how the "softly softly" approach is causing kids to run riot these days....and I would imagine it must effect dogs the same way.
I think clear rules and boundaries are the way to start...with everyone in the home singing from the same song sheet.
I also find that some pups push ther luck more than others so "corrections" should be individual to each dog.
For example....when Mojo was younger and still felt the need to jump up, a sharp "AH AH" or "OFF" was all it took.....nowdays I only have to look at her funny and she knows she's over stepped the mark....but then she is a very sensitive dog, I've never had the need to really put her in her place.
I've had other dogs which if I "AH AH'ed" at them would turn and put two fingers up (well if they could) so I've had to be firmer with them.
I think the ultimate in "correction" I've used has been to scruff a dog, push it to the floor and really growl/shout at it, but that punishment is reserved for the worst of crimes.
If we *only* use positive reinforcements that is fine while the dog is biddable, but they aren't all like that, some dogs really challenge you....then where do you go from there???
Positive reinforcement is the first and the most important step in making a dog a nice dog to live with.....but if it steps out of line...then it should know that it's behaviour will not be tolerated. And ultimately a dog that doesn't know it's boundaries isn't a happy dog at all.
PMSL Elle.......Go back to the charity shop and find a book with a picture od a nice doggie on the front...ask one of the nice people working there to help you if you find this difficult. Can I suggest a book with LOTS of pictures and not too many words????
I am quite firm with my 2 when necessay and also I use a half check with my 2 which I 'pop' when they need correcting, this brings them back in line but you do know how to use a half check properly, I know people don't advocate them on here but Majic is a little bu**er at times and this was the only way I could correct her heel work properly.
Dexter is a push it to the limits kinda dog and we have nicey nicery voice then second command is a gruff 'do as you told' if that doesn't happen it is a grab by the collar and get them to do what you want.
I do not smack my dogs but use methods appropriate for the misdeamenour eg time out, sent to bed etc......
I am lucky in that I have a 'mojo' Ruby has never pushed her luck at all in anything really - but I would have and asbo dog on my hands if she had been so inclined as Ruby being my first dog i suffer from - toosoftitus.
I am gettin tough in my mind though as I know I wont be as lucky with a male dalmtian (Henry cha cha cha) and I am planning to not take any messing from day 1. Oh and work a lot harder on lead training little 20kg Ruby is fine to handle even though her heel work is only so so but not I feel a potential 30kg dal.
I am just lucky Ruby allowed me to be so soft and it not lead to a misbehaved dog. What a good girl
As someone who managed to be the receiver of the cane quite regulaly at school, I can assure you it did me no harm, and possibly kept me nearer to the straight and narrow than I would otherwise have been!
As to dogs, punishment can be of use in training. Look at it this way. We want to achieve a certain response so we praise the desired action. We work on the premise that the dog desires to please us, so by praising we are letting our dog know it is doing the right thing. By the same token, a simple "No" can be used to identify an undesirable action. Hardly cruelty, but punishment none the less!
But what really is severe punishment? Simple. The most severe punishment your dog can imagine is the most severe punishment your dog has ever had! It cannot imagine anything more severe!! Look at Labradors with bad hips. As a breed they are very stoic. They can put up with so much. If for example you were in the habit of whipping your dog (Heaven forbid!) it would eventually become the norm, nothing out of the ordinary. If on the other hand your worst correction ever was a quiet "No!" then a shouted "No!!" could break your dog into pieces! This is why I always tell people to use the minimum correction possible, because then you have plenty left in the event of a major problem.
As someone who managed to be the receiver of the cane quite regulaly at school, I can assure you it did me no harm, and possibly kept me nearer to the straight and narrow than I would otherwise have been!
Oooooo John you weren't a *naughty boy* were you???
If I had my way I'd bring back the cane tomorrow (at school obviously, not for your dogs), mind you I'd bring back hanging too.....but that's a whole different debate.
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