Diana  Offline
Dual Personality
Joined: May 30, 2006
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 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Phill,
Yes I totally understand it IS really hard to know who to listen to, and hell it would be hidiously concieted of anyone to say'oh only listen to me' but truely spray collars are the start of having 'no other avenue to go' with a problem. They MIGHT solve it for a while but dogs become blase to them... and often a spray collar is only one step from an electric shock collar set on low because those who approve of one *can* tend to approve of both as they obviously have few other actual dog training skills up their sleeve.
However if she can tell you a couple of other avenues to try then she might be worth staying with, just putting a spray collar on a puppy is like hitting a peanut with a sledgehammer.
And, as I say, in classes, if others have the collars on of the same brand it has been shown they can often set other dogs collars off when you hit 'spray'.... Training alone is one thing with them on a hardened older dog maybe with a sheep worrying habit or some other such extreme problem but for a puppy barking in excitment in class its not a wise move in this humble opinion.
For me, if a puppy in my class barked a lot, we would have that puppy taken AWAY from the excitment inbetween actual exercises. Whilst on the move and doing stuff they tend to be fine, then between, outside and do a few more sits and stays....till they can just go in the corridor to wait their turn.
The problem with a lot of puppy classes is - and I hate to say this - instructors like the sound of their own voice too much. They rabbit on and on whilst these young puppies sit there, or spend too much time on problem puppies with everyone else sat up, which teaches patience nicely in older dogs but puppies cannot tolerate it. Its just another reason for a clever puppy NOT to whizz through the class levels because he may be able to do the exercises but often puppies start making noise from boredom as they are not equipped to cope.
Distraftion with treats often works but BEFORE the barking starts not after it has began and keep your pup on the move doing things even if you leave the class early. Puppies should never have more than half - 3/4 of an hours work at a class, if its longer they switch off, get bored and so on.
Di
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Goldentouch Offline
lead trained
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
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36500 LabPounds
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Lab Names: Leo, Meg
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | samson costantly barks at puppy class and chris the trainer said that next week we will try him with the spray collar to see if it helps |
The class i'm attending to do bronze silver and gold, the trainer who runs them using a spray collar on her own dog, who she always brings along.
To be honest i can't see what harm it does. The dog she has is a very very happy dog. And the spray collar NEVER goes off when any of the other dogs bark in class.
The dog who wears it is not distressed or unhappy or in any pain. He is very bouncy and still gets to enjoy and play with all the other dogs at the start and end of the class.
Like i say, in all the weeks i have been there i have never once seen the spray collar accidently 'go off' when another dog barks.
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Jill, Meg & Leo xx
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Diana Offline
Dual Personality
Joined: May 30, 2006
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Posts: 19447
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128369 LabPounds
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No.of Labs: 5+
Lab Names: Mallie, Fish, Tom, Bondy, Mia, Ruby & Otter!
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Location: West Sussex
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Jill you miss my point. I am saying that if several dogs have the collars on, and ONE owners hits the remote control in a confined space, the signal can sometimes set off other dogs spray collars.
For a trainer to have a dog with a last resort mesaure round its neck doesn't say an awful lot of the bag of skills for that trainer to my mind as a trainer.
These collars were designed, for right or wrong, to be a last resort for a persistant problem with no other avenue of non abusive correction. They are meant to be used very short term and if the need to continue with them continues then the collar taught the dog exactly nothing.
Removing a dog from the stimulus that is overexciting it and reducing the adrenaline is essential to teach basic self control. Being blasted with air, citronella smelling or otherwise raises adrenaline and teaches nothing about self control only a fear of creating that blast.... self control is when good manners is all about, not anticipation of a blast of air.
So how would that trainer teach young dogs not to bark? What would be her first choice method? Second and third? Or is it a case of 'ehhhh, quick fix ahoy!' Only it doesn't fix, it usually merely baffles and the barking continues, HENCE the use of the collar continuing. And as an afterthought, dogs are usually twice as bad when the collar is removed, they are not stupid, they know the feel of it and know when it is not there... 
Di
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JohnW Offline
The old dog
Joined: May 09, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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For collars which are actuated by sound it is impossible for the collar to differentiate between one dog barking and another and are really not suitable for a multi dog environment. They really are set off by other dogs, FACT. In that situation a handler controlled collar is a better bet, although the down side there is that it cannot be used for a dog which barks when left.
But in this case I think everyone must agree that to put a spray collar on this dog would be treating the "Effect" rather than the "Cause". Not the way to a lone term solution.
Regards, John
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