Type Changes / Weight in Showring

Diana · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Type Changes / Weight in Showring

.... posted from another thread as felt I was rambling off course from the original heading of 'puppy milk!'

Sorry to hijack the thread and I know a lot of respected show competitiors read the forum so its hard to not sound like being a pratt

lets put it this way to be fair, we all like the look of different types of Labrador, which is what makes the world go round (and the breed split - grin grin grin). Some truely see what would be basically healthy well covered dogs as skinny. Their eye goes to a heavier look. Some shy from the heavier look and breed and condition their dogs towards the leaner look.

Unfortunately through the years the breed has changed. Its very easy to see HOW it is has changed and it is NOBODYS FAULT. Let me bore you as have a quiet weekend for once....

Back in the early day of Labrador competitions showdogs looked very different. The reason they looked different was not general construction but was the amount of coat, tail, head, bone, rib and weight they carried.

The REASON they had less all over was basically the labrador started out looking like a light to middle weight hunter. Those who kept Labradors did so to work them. They certainly enjoyed showing them too but PRIMARILY no just show dogs existed, they were all dual purpose because they were all worked and shown a bit alongside it. So they were shown in working condition. Noone thought any other way really about it. I am talking turn of the century and the 1910's, 20' and 30's really here.

THEN many things happened. WW2 stopped a hell of a lot of field activities. Less and less people had the land they used to have, so strolling onto your 1000 acre estate to shoot your own pheasants etc became less common. Towns expanded and more andmore saw the good nature of the Labrador and saw the potential as a family dog.

Basically more and more labs were bred but less and less were actually worked. So needless to say, some with no interest in working their dogs, and of course not everyone is interested nor should be compelled to be, began to exhibit Labradors in the showring.

Now, of course generally lets consider human nature and preference. Lets stand two Labradors side by side under the gaze of a judge who has no connection to working labradors.
1) You have a strongly built, dog with a 'look at me' head, imposing size, heavily coated, thrashing tail, flashy movement, short boxy cobby body, correct conformation when you take the in's and out's of the breed standard but everything sitting at the top end of the scale in terms of twisting the standards wording. A dog with a level topline, AND a level bottom line, no tuck up at all, square through the shoulders, waist and bum, meaty, cuddlesome, magnificent to look at in some ways.

or

1) You have a moderate, less attention grabbing, leaner dog, possibly not as outgoing, possibly seemingly longer in leg, certainly with a less imposing head, a waist, seemingly longer through the body because there is less width of ribcage and less fat over the top of what there is. Often a bit of a tuck up at the loin, often less front and rear angulation, certyainly less deep in chest and certainly not what one could say as a cobby showman.

Which shouts to the non shooting man? The first dog.

Its like having Mr Universe (handsome face to match too) standing next to Mr Average from Alcester.

So, of course, whilst this may be a slight exaggeration in type, the well filled trouser, and the 38" waist has appeared from the leaner dog with a job to do.

But this is so way back when that it cannot be blamed on modern breeders who show only to desirevtheir dogs to do well in the ring, and you simply cannot win under most judges with a well made dog without 'ring condition'. There are too many well made dogs WITH it in the ring today for that to happen under all but a select few.

Hence few kennels going the true dual purpose route because you end up ranting in a bitter and twisted way on forums on a sunny saturday when you should be either out training a dog OR stuffing your puppy with Chappie depending on if you have a test or a show tomorrow Ha ha ha!

Please do ask if thats not clear (as mud!)

Di

Diana · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:58 am Post subject:

Have a good example, a real live webcam type example of the above right here right now in my kitchen Wink

I have a Show Champion bitch staying right now. Beautiful to look at and the most sweet soft labrador you could wish to meet. She has, obviously hit the highest heights in the showring, achieved superb things for her owners/breeders - she has won far more than my labradors have through the years myself. Few people make up a Show Champion even regular competitiors through decades of showing.

BUT she would have been stared at with wonder if she was shown in the first half of the last century.

She is not fat as in wobbly. She is bred to be built differently to my dogs. What she eats would give my dogs the ultimate in the runs - a large tin of chappie, biscuit mixer and 2 cups of complete food with milk and bonios. She doesn't poo excessively, she is used to it.

However there is no WAY in the world this bitch could jump a gate with a **** pheasant in her mouth. She couldn't really jump even sheep wire. She gets tired quite quickly and trots behind me for the last 20 minutes or so each walk whilst mine are still skipping about. BUT should she HAVE to be able to jump a gate? She will never need to. Neither of her parents ever had to, I doubt any of her offspring will ever need to.....?

Function has changed for our dogs. Is there a need to maintain what they once HAD to do when so so many see a dog that couldn't do that as beautiful. Indeed she has achieved more competitively by NOT being able to do it than my dogs who can do it.....

Of course I realise that different types make up to show champion, some heavier, some 'slightly' lighter, but there isn't a huge amount of difference in size and type between show champions.

I find it a total conundrum and would welcome thoughts.... I know myself because of my love of working dogs I couldn't live with breeding dogs that cannot do anything I throw at them, but I do also love those show wins... huge thrill..... and how I wish i'd been born in the 1920's Wink

I do feel, personally, for what its worth, as fewer and fewer people in the show world take part in working Labradors the type will remian heavy possibly even heavier. i feel the bitch I have with me is far larger than show champions from 10, 12 or 14 years ago....and a different animal to those in the 40's and 50's....

Di

VJH · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:13 am Post subject:

hehe lovely post Di - well Ruby although not KC registered herself has a very very lean appearance and I love the look totally - but I am sure as a total novice had Ruby been a chunkier build I would love that too.

I am totally hyper loony myself this morning as we have just returned from our first agility class and Ruby appered to be a natural - everyone in the class was waxing lyrical about her sleekness her fabulous muscle tone and generally 'lovely to see a lab that looks like that nowadays'

But look at my girl - although I dont have a clue what characteristics she has that would be any good (topline I thought was eyeliner and all the rest I would have a clue so she may be a VERY poor example) I think she is fabulous.

I kind of went off on one there but will press submit anyhow Wink

_Mary_ · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:17 am Post subject:

This bitch is with you to be trained as a working dog I`m assuming Di, surely she will need to be able to jump a fence with a pheasant in her mouth now?

Diana · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:55 am Post subject:

She is here to undertake training for her show gundog working certificate. She won't have to jump in the test, just sit up through a drive or two, hunt, pick several birds and make a couple of retrieves from water. It is to show they have the basic obedience and desire to work rather than any kind of advance skill in control, handling or field work.

Its to try and maintain a love of working in our breed even if the skill might not be there for the finer details of doing so.

Di

_Mary_ · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:58 am Post subject:

I see Di, thanks Smile

sheens · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:59 am Post subject:

Great post as usual Di, very informative.

my4labs · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:

Very informative post Di, great read. Smile

PenelopePitstop · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:13 am Post subject:

lol Di, love it! Wink

Diana · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:18 am Post subject:

I hasten to add having just been cleaning the kennels and panicing.... there are some dogs out there in the showring, who are approaching top honours who whilst heavier than your average worker, certainly do typify in my personal eye the dual purpose look. But I am speaking in general.... A couple or more are owned by list members Wink

I do also think sometimes its decieving. Take a couple of stone off some of the top influential sires in the country and their good construction that did them so well in the ring would shine through and make them functional in the field - ditto some bitches (although so many are just so short legged and square - 'roomy' the ring tend to call it as regards carrying and whelping puppies Wink

. However because of the excess coat and bone and general size they tire so quickly. I find even in what is my largest type - Deeds - he tires much more quickly than the slightly lighter boned dogs I've had and bred in the past. By the 6th drive on a shoot he has his head on his paws staring tiredly around him.... whilst others out with me are still sitting shaking with adrenaline, sitting, but hovering, two inches off the ground waiting for action Wink

Back in the ring, you often see see from the same kennels a lovely type coming out at 6 months, in decent condition, and they maintain this through 2, even 3 years of age sometimes, but then, as day follows night, the ring calls and the breeders answer and by the time the dogs are in Post Graduate and Limit (or around 3 years of age basically) the weight pours on as they come out of their maturing stages and stays on until they dissapear about 6 or 7 years of age - retired.

Di