I sometimes wonder if all this positive training only method works all the time. I was watching Its Me Or The Dog the other day with the dallie who rang rings around the family. VS trained him using postive methods - and this did work. But to me, the dallie was still getting his own way (even if he did have to work for it) and getting food all the time. But why did it get to that stage in the first place?? With all my three, they know that mealtimes is not the time for scroungeing and playing silly beggers - its shut up time or get out! And they know I mean it! But have I trained them by using bits of chicken to make sure they did as they were told? No. Did I bully them? No. They just know my look - no messing!
I do use positive training though when teaching new commands (but not heel work as this is a hinderance) but once they know the command then being the high pitched wimpy owner has no place!
And my dogs all love me, they know their place. And I don't follow the Pack Theory either.
I to am enjoying this debate. I'm all for positive training BUT I also believe that dogs are happier animals if (like children) they have firm boundries and rules. I think that this is what helps a dog to make some sense of where they fit into a human world.
The point I would like to make is that all dogs are different and whereas a scruffing and scolding might be effective as a form of discipline to one dog, to another more sensitive dog it could be extremely detrimental. If I did this to Zorro, his world would fall apart and I think it could damage his trust in me. He is a very sensitive dog and a look and a sharp voice is enough to show him clearly my displeasure. Ugo is at an age when he is starting to test the boundries but I would avoid physically disciplining him as he isn't half as confident as he makes out. If you can physically discipline a dog just the once, by for instance scruffing, and it to then be effective in that the dog has learnt not to repeat that behaviour ever, then I would say its probably OK. If however, someone is having to continually physically chastise their dog for repeated behaviour, I would say that it hasn't worked and you would need to look at what you are doing wrong and what the dog is learning/gaining from the behaviour and its consequences.
My thoughts are that physical punishment should be saved for totally unacceptable behviour and not for what I would call 'normal' unacceptable behaviour which, providing the owner's relationship is sound, should be able to be dealt with in non-physical ways, ie voice/body language. If you start to physically punish a dog for doing wrong on a general level, where do you go next if the behaviour escalates or the dog starts new behaviours that you don't like?
The question I put was to John was what he did when a young dog growled at him. It has never happened to me and feeling it would warrant an extra-ordinary immediate response to indicate that behaviour was not acceptable I was interested in what he had done.
I have (Thank God) never been in that situation with Max who, like your Zorro is a rather sensitive chap and who only needs a stern look or sharp tone to know whatever he is up to is unacceptable which is why I asked what John did when in that situation.
Correction must always be fitted to the dog. Both Anna and Amy would fall apart at a strict "No". Beth on the other hand would laugh at you! (Although she would never have dreamed at growling. She was never serious about anything in her life!) Mandy was an extremely strong willed dog, a born mother and puppy had to do as she was told! As I said, she only ever growled at me the once, but left to her own devices she would have ruled the roost. As it was she was always trying to give orders. She would NEVER allow me to cross a road diagonally, it had to be straight across, and if I really wanted to annoy her then the way to do it was to walk her down the centre of the road! All this stemmed from a day when we were walking down a lane and a car suddenly came around the corner. But it was not fear, because even if she was on a really long lead and was able to get to the pavement she would STILL try to drag me out of the road!
None of those dogs was ever aggressive, just strong willed so all they needed was showing their place in the scheme of things.
This thread is about growling at owners, not about growling at strangers. That is a different thing. Growling at strangers can have two possible causes. 1/ It may be down to guarding instincts or 2/ It could be fear. Now either of those I can understand. Obviously it cannot be allowed, but also obviously it is not the same thing at all and equally obviously both cases 1 and 2 would need handling differently to each other. Correction is never "One size fits all."
I would see a behaviourist. I had a trainer behaviourist when stormy was younger and she was fantastic. He use to what she would call mob me and it use to upset me as this meant he grabbed my arm and use to bite it everytime I came in from the patio, sometimes he would growl too. He did this only to me and no one else and I wanted to make sure he stopped doing it all together, so she came round and showed me how to deal with it. After just one hour, I was no longer afraid to come in my patio and it gave me the knowledge and confidence to deal with the problem even when she was not there and it worked.
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