New breeder advice please?

bingaling · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject:

Wow, $1000 is at the lower end of the scale for you guys? Here it's considered expensive! Although the chocs here can go for anything $1200 upwards.

As mentioned in my first post, I have nothing against new breeders, I realise everybody has got to start somewhere. Just as long as all health checks come back great, then that suits me just fine!

From the things I have read on this forum and from around the net, I was under the impression that any dog thought to be carrying a gene it shouldn't should be avoided breeding from, right? I guess that is why I am a little skeptical, because it just seems they were a little blindsighted that their pet was a perfect candidate for being bred from, when in fact it possibly wasn't. But hey, what do I know? Laughing

I've never owned a lab before and never researched breeders before! So I welcome to be told I'm wrong when I am Smile

I'm glad me asking so many questions can be classed as refreshing lol, I was starting to think it was more falling into the category of annoying Laughing

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm still not sure what to do Confused

Maddie · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject:

Hi Katie

A$1,000 may be the lower end for a UK pup but in France it's A$1,420. I paid A$2,400 for a pup from the top lab breeder in France.

There should be no real difference in price for any particular colour though in practice this occurs a lot. In France chocs tend to be more expensive as the first chocs were only bred here as late as 1990.

As a matter of interest, was in an Optigen test?

bingaling · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:

Hi Nicola,

I've only been looking for a lab pup for a few months, but all yellows I have come across have been no more than $850 so maybe we are just cheap here in Australia Wink

Hopefully not cheap and nasty!! Shocked

If bought from the newspaper or a pet shop you only pay around $500 - but something I will never do! A friend bought a golden retriever pup last year and only paid $800 or $850 as he opted to not get the full papers to breed or show her, otherwise it would have cost $1000 or more. The breeders I've been in contact with sell the puppies on the limited register like the golden retriever mentioned, and that's all I'm interested in as I do not wish to breed or show my dog. Could this possibly be the price difference between Australia and the UK/France? Are pups there sold with papers to say you can breed and show them and those cost more?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your Optigen test question Embarassed

Maddie · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject:

I only asked about the Optigen test because it is the only DNA test I know of to show the faulty gene relating to PRA. I wondered if there was another one available in Australia. http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html

I am not sure of how the registration process works in Australia but in the UK, certainly, pedigree pups are registered with the Kennel Club. This is the only official register for pure bred dogs. Any pure bred dog with this registration can, in theory, be bred from (so it's easy for any old tom dick or harry to breed). Reputable breeders will/may endorse their pups registration so that the animals can not be used for breeding (thereby lowering the potential value of any offspring). The endorsement may be removed but only by the original breeder. Some also endorse that pups are not for export for similar reasons.

If France, "race" or pedigree/pure breed dogs can only be bred from parents that are LOF (Livre d'origines Francais). When a LOF litter is bred, the purchaser receives a birth certificate with provisional LOF registration. In order to breed and get full registration the dogs have to pass a kind of inspection at a dog show called a "seance de confirmation" to confirm that they conform with breed standard and are worthy of being bred from. So only the best examples can be used for breeding pure breed dogs not just any old thing. This could account for the higher price, certainly. Also, in France pups are sold usually already microchipped and vaccinated.

I paid rather a lot of money for Blue because I was lookng specifically for a show dog. I did a lot of research, chatted with a number of French breeders until I found one I was happy with (she is English but has lived and bred labs in France for over 25 years and is the top lab breeder in France).

BTW are you up late or early? What time is it where you are?

bingaling · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject:

I'm quite new to all this so not sure what tests are out there (in Australia, or anywhere for that matter) relating to DNA and the faulty gene relating to PRA. I'll be completely honest with you and say I don't even know what PRA stands for Embarassed

I only heard of the term today Razz

(I just looked up that link you posted so now I now what it stands for Wink

) I think this is the only test that is done here for the eyes, but I really am not sure.

I'm also still relatively new to the register thing and if you can breed or show your dog or not. I feel so NEW Embarassed

I'm learning, slowly but surely Smile

I guess it's hard to pinpoint exactly why prices differ, but the inspections your dogs have to go through could certainly be a big factor.

It is 10.30pm here in Perth. Almost time for bed! Although that just means work will be here before I know it Rolling Eyes

Maddie · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

Night night then! Laughing

Diana · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

" Thanks for the confirmation about the puppies carrying the gene, I thought this might be the case even if they didn't have the disorder themselves. I have no intentions of breeding any dog I get so that wouldn't be a problem for me I suppose, as long as the pup is healthy itself."

Thats exactly right. Breeding carriers to clears (OPTIGEN DNA tested clears, not just eye certificated clears) is perfectly accepable if you can assure yourself that the resulting pups, unless tested to see if they inherited their clear parents gene or their carrier parents gene, are not bred from. They will definately never develop LATE ONSET PRA. Late onset PRA is often here known as GPRA and is the PRA form that the Optigen DNA test checks for. There are other eye problems common to labradors that the 'old fashioned' paper eye certificate tested for.

So, this brings me to ask, when you say the Dam doesn't have an eye certificate, is this that she has just not been OPTIGEN tested, or that she hasn't had an eye test at all?

There are two eye tests to try and make this clear (pardon the pun) that you can undertake before breeding both here and in Aust.

1) An 'old fashioned' eye examination by an eye specialist which checks for the THREE problems common to labradors. PRA, HC (Which is Hereditary Cataracts) and MRD. MRD is a fairly mild problem which tends NOT to result in blindness and they are unsure how it is inherited, if at all, yet. HC appears to have a similar inheritence to PRA with carriers and clears and affecteds with a reasonably clear pattern of how it is passed down. A dog is tested yearly to see if any of these problems start to develop. A dog clearof all of them at 2 can develop anyone of them at 3, 4 or even much later so hence continued checks being necessary in breeding stock. You canonly get a pass / fail result named 'unaffected' or 'affected'. You get a paper certificate with this clearly shown. You get anew paper certificate every time you test so a current one can be shown to puppy buyers. These are just known as 'eye certificates' when you hear the common phrase in adverts 'hip scored and eye tested clear'.

2) Optigen testing. A DNA test done by sending blood to Optigen in the United States with three results possible. Clear. Carrier. Affected. Developed because in the past two dogs with clear 'paper' eye certificates were mated, but when the offspring were tested down the line, some were affected. 'How could this be!' the cry went up. 'We have done the best we can!' Of course the answer being that bad luck meant that two carriers had been mated resulting in some of the litter (statistically 25%) becoming affecteds when eye tested themselves later in life. So aftersome time the Optigen DNA test was developed. Which allows us with care to not lose Carrier dogs from the gene pool, identify carriers and also affecteds much earlier than nature may of allowed us to and breed accordingly.

After all, it is now perfectly possible with this tool to have an affected dog, mate it to a clear and produce no PRAat all. Then knowing the whole litter are definately carriers you can then breed your carrier from it to a clear, test the litter and keep only a clear puppy... and in 2 generations you have gone from affected to clearwithout producing a single case of PRA!

So when I ask you, has themother been 'paper' eye tested? I ask because although the PRAbit is covered and known info by way of the Optigen test, the 'paper' eye certificate also tests for these other two nasties that the Optigen test does not cover at all....

Di

Diana · Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject:

John, just to clarify my earlier post on page one, I was putting into perspective that a 0:1 elbow score andits affects on the resulting offspring, taking into account the otherparent had) Wink

elbows would be pretty minor in the scheme of things.

I also feel being a little common sensical with how a pup is raised is useful with every puppy not just those whose parents have been elbow scored. Indeed its probably MORE sensible to becautious with a non elbow scored opffspring because you have no clue the shape of its elbows genetically.

I do also agree there is certainly some inheritability there in ED and its related problems. Just maybe not proven to the extent of HD because of the extra wearand tear on elbows by the time of scoring compared to the back end.

Best!
Di

bingaling · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:57 am Post subject:

Hi Diana,

Thank you so much for clarifying the eye tests for me - so much clearer now! Now I have a better understanding, I can be asking more of the right questions to breeders.

I asked the breeder if they had their girl eye tested (I could already tell they hadn't done the Optigen test for her) and they replied with no, she has had no eye tests done at all. I had asked her in the same email about if she is charging so much more than the other breeders I have spoken to because she will be registering them on the main register as opposed to the limited register most breeders do for pups going to families (not being shown or bred) and she said she is still charging $1000 regardless of what register they are on. She was getting a little narky with me by the sounds of it - probably getting sick of my questions Rolling Eyes

So as nicely and tactfully as I could, I told her I would not be buying a puppy from her as she charges much more than experienced breeders whose dogs have had and passed all relevant health checks, and breed from champion shown parents. I know it sounded a little rude, but I honestly tried being as nice as I could about it as I thought it might help them out with future litters and possible reasons why they can't find people to buy their expensive pups!

So the hunt continues for me.... Crying or Very sad

Worst case scenario - the lovely breeder I had the pleasure of speaking to is breeding 2 of her girls in October and after she chooses the pup she wants to keep for showing, I get pick of the litters as I'm first on her list Very Happy

That wait is going to kill me Shocked